Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 02:23:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu To: litprog@shsu.edu From: mckearney_s Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mckearney_s@BT-WEB.BT.CO.UK Subject: WORDWEB Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 07:58:13 +0100 Some people have requested a copy of my adapted version of WORDWEB and I am looking into uuencoding it for email or something. However, my company pay me to do another job so I am trying to fit it in to my free time. I am doing my best to get this done. Sorry for the delay. Stephen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 03:55:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 01 Jul 93 10:50:33 MDT From: Zdenek Wagner Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WAGNER%CSEARN.BITNET@SHSU.EDU Subject: CWEB for LaTeX? To: Literate Progaramming list Several days ago I saw an announcement of LaTeX support in CWEB. I erased the message in the hope that it will appear in H. H. Bode's PC port. However, this version does not contain CWEB.STY (it was announced to be the main style) and I probably forgot the name of the Darmstadt ftp site (my four attempts failed due to unknown host). Can someone help me to find the correct site? Thanks in advance , ,~~~/ /` / /| /~~~ / / |_/ /__/ ' | / / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /\ | /| / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~~ / , / / /~~~ / / /~~~ / \ |/ |/ / /_/ / / / /~~~ / ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ' ' ~~~ ' ` ' ' ~~~ ~~/ ' ' ~~~ ' Zdenek Wagner______/ Some gateway between me and you may garble backslash. It will appear on your screen as ã but now it seems repaired. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 05:34:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK Message-ID: <9307011033.AA24473@imada.ou.dk> Subject: Re: Re:Are modules necessary? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 12:33:53 MET DST Osman F Buyukisik | | Hi, maybe I misunderstood the first time, but it looks like you are right | ``numbers'' are not needed. Need a better method than just page numbers | for the indices (like what Norman said 17a, 17b,...). I accidentially deleted Normans message so I am replying to this one instead. What was the main difficulty in using pagenumbers instead of scrap numbers in nuweb? As I gather it the \pageref macro in LaTeX should do the job, perhaps with a slight addition to it that makes a count of the references on the page like this Used on page $17_2$ .. or .. Used on page 17 (twice) I like the general idea but an actual implementation is something else. Perhaps making it an option? Regards, -- Thorbj{\o}rn Andersen ravn@imada.ou.dk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 07:38:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Adrian F Clark Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, alien@ESSEX.AC.UK Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:36:08 +0100 Message-ID: <19859.9307011236@vulcan.essex.ac.uk.essex.ac.uk> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Are modules necessary? On Thu, 1 Jul 93 12:33:53 MET DST, Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen said: T> What was the main difficulty in using pagenumbers instead of scrap T> numbers in nuweb? As I gather it the \pageref macro in LaTeX should do T> the job, perhaps with a slight addition to it that makes a count of the T> references on the page like this T> Used on page $17_2$ .. or .. Used on page 17 (twice) There's no real difficulty in using page numbers for cross-references in Nuweb: one could use the same approach as in NOWEB. However, the only way I can see to produce the indices (which currently refer to module numbers, remember) would be to generate LaTeX \index commands and then use MakeIndex. Not out of the question, but certainly less neat then the current one-pass solution. ..Adrian Dr Adrian F. Clark JANET: alien@uk.ac.essex INTERNET: alien%uk.ac.essex@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk FAX: (+44) 206-872900 BITNET: alien%uk.ac.essex@ac.uk PHONE: (+44) 206-872432 (direct) Dept ESE, University of Essex, Wivenhoe Park, Colchester, Essex, C04 3SQ, UK. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 08:42:47 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK Message-ID: <9307011341.AA26598@imada.ou.dk> Subject: Re: Are modules necessary? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, alien@ESSEX.AC.UK Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 15:41:40 MET DST Adrian F Clark | | There's no real difficulty in using page numbers for cross-references | in Nuweb: one could use the same approach as in NOWEB. However, the | only way I can see to produce the indices (which currently refer to | module numbers, remember) would be to generate LaTeX \index commands | and then use MakeIndex. Not out of the question, but certainly less | neat then the current one-pass solution. That is true, but would that not be the case anyhow if page numbers were chosen as the main reference (which would then go for the index as well), as Nuweb has no idea of the actual placement of the scraps on the pages? Putting implementation issues aside -- what is the most convenient label of modules for using a Web? -- Thorbj{\o}rn Andersen ravn@imada.ou.dk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 09:37:51 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: drs@bach.pdb.bnl.gov (drs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, drs@BACH.PDB.BNL.GOV Message-ID: <9307011036.ZM7085@bach.pdb.bnl.gov> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:36:15 -0400 References: <0096ECA4.CC11AAE0.4955@SHSU.edu> <9306301054.ZM3448@bach.pdb.bnl.gov> <9306301714.AA05306@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: re: Fweb and C++ Hello folks, Yesterday I sent a message to this group asking about the formatting of C++ code with fweb. I recieved one response from Marcus Speh, which tried to be helpful, but points out a weak point in the tex/web approach to LitProg, and a general weakness that others have encountered with TeX in general. Marcus pointed to a file on his system that gave an example of a C++ web, but required latex to run. Fine - I have latex, ran it through fweave/latex and recieved an error message. Maybe two weeks from now, I will be able to decode the message, but just now I cannot. Marcus and I decided that it probably is based on a difference in fwebmac.sty (?) files between his system and mine. His is hacked, mine fresh from the box. (The message is attached below.) If the purpose of LitProg is to communicate what we have done, then this is a clear failure! Marcus has a web that is undecipherable to me, and even if I manage to figure out this problem, that simply postpones the pain until next time. So, the question is, in general, how do we make webs (and other tex files) transportable? The basic question still remains however - how best to do LitProg in C++, and how to get it properly formatted. In a few minutes, I'll post a rather crude C++ web that I've been working on as an example of what I am trying to do on a development project that I am a part of. I will have to convince mgmt as well as some skeptical programmers that this is worthwhile, so I'd like some opinions on the general approach. Dave (PS - this isn't grumbling - I really want this to work!) Error msg: bach 151% fweave -PL IntArray.web This is FWEAVE [UNIX version 1.30 (June 10, 1993)]. Reading IntArray.web... *1 *2 *30 *31 *37 *38 Writing IntArray.tex... *1 *2 *30 *31 *37 *38 Writing INDEX.tex...MODULES.tex... Done. CPU = 0.4 sec.; REAL <= 1.0 sec. CPU/REAL = 39.0%. [FWEAVE: No errors were found.] bach 152% latex IntArray.tex This is TeX, Version 3.141 (C version d) (IntArray.tex LaTeX Version 2.09 <14 January 1991> (/usr/bach.pdb.bnl.gov/lib/tex/macros/fwebmac.sty LaTeX error. See LaTeX manual for explanation. Type H for immediate help. ! Missing \begin{document}. \@latexerr ...for immediate help.}\errmessage {#1} e l.128 e venit ? H You're in trouble here. Try typing to proceed. If that doesn't work, type X to quit. ? X No pages of output. Transcript written on IntArray.log. bach 153% -Sigh- On Jun 30, 7:14pm, Marcus Speh wrote: > Subject: re: Fweb and C++ > >>>>> On Wed, 30 Jun 1993 10:54:31 -0400, drs@bach.pdb.bnl.gov (drs) said: > > |> I seem to be spending an inordinate amount of effort forcing the format of C++ > |> code in fweb. (It seems to want to stick an entire method on one line.) I can't > |> believe that this is correct. > > |> Does anyone have a sample C++ web that I can use as a baseline model? The demos > |> that are shipped with fweb 1.3 are not useful in seeing what I am doing wrong. > > I dont know whether some silly samples I wrote can be of help -- look > in ftp.desy.de, directory pub/web/fweb -- this information is also > contained (plus more samples) in the WWW LitProg info page which you > may consult. Whatever your findings are, write to me and I put it > in the next FWEB FAQ -- sorry for this brief answer, I am about to leave! > > Marcus > > ps info how to get to WWW is in > pub/www/projects/Announce/LitProg.txt > > > >-- End of excerpt from Marcus Speh ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 09:56:38 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: drs@bach.pdb.bnl.gov (drs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, drs@BACH.PDB.BNL.GOV Message-ID: <9307011054.ZM7282@bach.pdb.bnl.gov> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:54:51 -0400 To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: C++ web This is a C++ web aimed at fweb 1.30. I created it with gnu emacs and it's web mode. (What a super way to work!) Some background, I'm not especially TeX literate, tho I know enough to run it and get a listing. I'm not concerned so much with the details of the internals of the class as I am with the presentation. Here are my gripes: 1) Title on the title page is vanishingly small. (I can probably fix this.) 2) The words Model and List appear in italics before they are defined, bold afterwards. I'd like to have them all appear in bold, but I don't want to bother the user with the formatting details (The @f command is visible in the weave - yuch!) 3) I wish the subsections used decimal notation (e.g. 3.1, 3.1.1, etc.) The table of contents reflects the heirarchy of topics, but the document does not. 4) The formatting of code is good until it hits - well - code. It seems to use the "fit as much code on one line as you can" formatting algorithm *except* if it encounters a function with 0 or 1 line. I have to tell you that I particularly like the idea of having hard wired (or at least templated) sections for constructors/destructors/conversion operators/assignment operators etc. in the web - it acts as a reminder to the poor suffering C++ programmer who has a *lot* to worry about, and should be aiming to have concrete classes! In any case, it is early in the development cycle here, so if others have templates, for C++ I'd love to see them. Here is the web: Dave %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % % % PROGRAM : Model.web % % CREATOR : drs [drs@@bach.pdb.bnl.gov] % % CREATION DATE : Tue Jun 29 08:42:10 1993 % % % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%% limbo.material used at aTm as of 7 Dec '92 cut-here % % ??????.web, ?fweb version 1.23 ???? % e-mail and phone number ???? % More comments are helpful if not created with web-mode % % % LIMBO MATERIAL Last edited by Bart Childs on December 1, 1992 % \input limbo.sty \input today.tex \input time.tex \def\title{{\bf Model Class}} % web-mode edits the previous line when creating a new web. % Make the previous a comment and edit the next if you don't use web-mode. %\def\title{{\tt ?? I need a Title ??}} % begin Bottom of Contents Page macro \def\botofcontents{\vskip 0pt plus 1fil minus 1.5in {\bigskip\parskip6pt plus2pt \parindent20pt % begin abstract \vskip0.5in \noindent{\bf Abstract. }\it % The abstract is put right here! This web describes the Model base class, which is used to implement the MVC paradigm from Smalltalk. }% end abstract % BC often puts this in as a comment about pre-release versions ... %\vskip0.5in %{\vfill\it % comments on anything else ???? % %}% end of comments on anything else \vfil \rightline{Dave Stampf}% You can personalize your output here, for example. \rightline{\today }% today.tex should be preloaded, input it if not \rightline{\miltime }% time.tex should be preloaded, input it if not }% end of Bottom of Contents Page macro % This ends the limbo material and begins the WEB % % In fweb's you want an AT-c, AT-c++, AT-n, AT-n9, or AT-Lx at this point % and be sure to replace `AT-' with the obvious character!!!!! @c++ @* Overview of Models. @f Model int @f List int @f NULL int The |Model| Class is a root level abstract class which gives a basic functionality to all other derived classes. This functionality is called a ``dependency'' between two objects, in that one object wishes to know if another has been modified. It is at the heart of the Model-View-Controller paradigm from Smalltalk. There, the View is typically a bit-mapped graphic view of {\it something} which we call generically a |Model|. When the |Model| changes state, it sends out a ``changed'' message to all of its dependents. Since the View is one such dependent, it is notified when whatever it represents changes and so takes action to keep up to date. Note that each object may have several dependents. @* Relation to Other Classes. This is a root class. It inherits from no other class. It contains a reference to a |List| class which contains the list of dependents. Many classes are derived from the |Model| class. @= class Model @* Specific Behaviour. @*1 Maintainence of the Dependency Relationship. The core of the |Model| class is concerned with maintaining a list of the |Model|'s dependents. Basically, one has to be able to append and remove dependents. @= public: void AddDependent(Model *aDependent); int RemoveDependent(Model *aDependent); @*1 Handling Modifications. Every object which is derived from |Model| should send itself the ``changed'' message whenever it changes its state. It then sends the message ``update'' to all of its dependents. For simplicity, I've put all of these messages in the |Model| class, though in reality, it need only appear in a separate View class. @= public: void Changed(void); void Update(void); void GoodBye(void); @* Representation. The internal representation of the |Model| class is entirely private. It consists only of a pointer to a |List| object. When that pointer is |NULL|, there are no dependents. @f List class @= private: List *dependentsList; @ Don't forget to declare |List| as a class. You don't have to provide details in the |Model| header file, buy you do in the |Model| implementation. @= class List; @* Implementation of Behaviour. The behaviour of the List class is determined by 4 functions. AddDependent, RemoveDependent, Changed, and Update. As much as possible, try to eliminate the |List| object for efficiency. (Most methods should check to make sure it is not |NULL| before doing anything. @*1 AddDependent. Whenever you add a dependent, place it at the tail end of the dependents list. If the list does not exist, create it first. @= void Model::AddDependent(Model* aDependent) { if (!dependentsList) { dependentsList = new List; } dependentsList->Append(aDependent); } @*1 RemoveDependent. Remove the specified dependent if you can. @= int Model::RemoveDependent(Model* aDependent) { if (dependentsList) return dependentsList->Remove(aDependent); else return 0; } @*1 Changed. Whenever an object changes state, it sends itself the ``changed'' message, which causes all of its dependents to be notified. @= void Model::Changed(void) { if (dependentsList) dependentsList->SendUpdateToAll(); } @*1 Update. Every class which depends upon another needs to define an Update message. The generic response is to ignore it. @= void Model::Update(void) { } @*1 GoodBye. Every class which depends upon another needs to define a GoodBye message for when the object it depends on destructs. The generic response is to ignore it. @= void Model::GoodBye(void) { } @* Making Models Concrete. To really make this class useful, try to make it a first class C++ type. This requires only a few methods to be defined. First of all, you need a decent constructor set and a destructor. Then you need to redefine the assignment operator to behave reasonably. @*1 Constructors. There should be at least a default constructor, and one constructed from a similar object to handle function calls. @= public: Model(); Model(const Model &aModel); @ My feeling right now is that whenever a new |Model| is constructed, it should not have any dependents. This would be a mess with windows etc. Lets see just how it works. @= Model::Model() { dependentsList = 0; } Model::Model(const Model &aModel) { dependentsList = 0; } @*1 Destructors. When you have dynamic memory and complex relations, you must have a destructor. @= public: ~Model(); @ Whenever you destroy a |Model|, you should let all of its dependents know that it is no longer around by sending all of them a Goodbye message. @= Model::~Model() { if (dependentsList) dependentsList->SendGoodByeToAll(); delete dependentsList; } @*1 Assignment Operator. All first class C++ types can be assigned. This is no different. @= public: const Model& operator=(const Model& aModel); @ Once again, don't bother to build up the dependents list on assignment. @= const Model& Model::operator=(const Model& aModel) { Model *tmp = new Model; return *tmp; } @* Details. About all that is left to take care of is to actually create the files. Every class we create has two files associated with it. The header (.h) file and the implementation (.c++) file. @a @o Model.h #ifndef MODEL_H #define MODEL_H @ @ { @ }; #endif @ The implementation file is output directly. @a @ @ @ @^Stub@> @= /* empty */ @ @^Stub@> @= #include "Model.h" #include "List.h" @* Index. %%% end of limbo.material ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 11:23:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 11:21:42 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9307011621.AA20426@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: nuweb and page numbers I think that pages numbers (or some sort) would be great. However, I can't see a clean way to add them to nuweb. The obvious approach is to use add a \label to each scrap and use \pageref wherever I need to refer to a scrap (in the crossreference lists and the indices). Unfortunately, I can't eliminate duplicates before running latex and I think the lists will look really ugly with lots of duplicate page numbers. However, it's an easy experiment if someone wants to try it. An alternative that might work out would be to inspect the .aux file created by latex. It'll have all the labels and page numbers from the last run of latex and therefore should be reasonably close. Hmmmm... I like this idea. I'll give it a shot in my copious spare time. Preston ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 12:15:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 13:11:47 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9307011711.AA07759@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, drs@BACH.PDB.BNL.GOV CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: re: Fweb and C++ Sounds like fweb produced a TeX version not LaTeX. Try using TeX on the weaved file. There is a considerable learning curve on fweb, just look at the manual! If you are not that interested in automatic formatting of your code, and forgo the auto generated index, I would suggest trying nuweb. It is laguage independent but uses LaTeX as typesetter. The only system that I know that is also typesetter/word-processor independent is CLiP (works only on msdos). In all of these systems you do the code pretty-printing yourself. Nuweb offers user requested indices. These systems that I mentioned are very easy to learn as their manuals are a few pages long! Litprog paradigm is independent of word-processor/editor/typesetter and language independent. However TeX and LaTeX provide typeset quality outputs and are used most often. You do need to know TeX or LaTeX to use them. But there are a lot of ``litprog'' tools, just choose the one that suits you. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 14:24:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 15:22:23 EDT From: krommes@theory.pppl.gov (John Krommes) Message-ID: <9307011922.AA16421@theory.pppl.gov> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: FWEB and C++ Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Krommes@princeton.edu Dave Stampf's C++ example for FWEB 1.30 will weave much better if all the @f statements are removed. These are evidently in there to force certain |class|-related identifiers to format correctly before they are defined in the web. The problem is analogous to difficulties in earlier web processors with the |typedef| statement in C. FWEAVE now processes |typedef| statements during the first pass, rather than the second, so |typedef|'d identifiers will format properly even before they are defined. I haven't gotten around to doing the analogous thing for |class| yet; I rely on users to let me know what's bothering them. In FWEB 1.30, @f statements can be made invisible with the command-line option ``-Wf''. Various users have asked for subsections numbered as 3.1.1 etc. This feature will be provided in the next major FWEB release, along with a general upgrade of the LaTeX support. As a personal preference, I would prefer that this literate programming discussion group not be used for the microscopic debugging of various processors (whether it be my FWEB or anyone else's), detailed installation questions, etc. I think such details should be directed at the appropriate author via ordinary, private e-mail. I feel that the best use of this discussion group is to address general conceptual issues---e.g., are language-sensitive webs obsolete? Regarding this latter issue, I feel that if a language such as Fortran or C is supported, use of a language-sensitive processor is far superior to an insensitive one, for the reasons mentioned recently by Bart Childs. However, it is clearly impractical to support all possible languages, so tools such as NUWEB certainly have their place. I expect that the next release of FWEB will offer a ``no-language'' option, implemented as one of FWEB's multiple languages. This is a straightforward extension of FWEB's meta-comment facilities and will enable one to move between language sensitivity and NUWEB-type output at will. --- John krommes@princeton.edu | John A. Krommes | Plasma Physics Laboratory (Mail to krommes@princeton.edu is forwarded | P.O. Box 451 to krommes@lyman.pppl.gov == 192.55.106.129) | Princeton, NJ 08543 (To ftp files, you must use lyman.pppl.gov.) | Phone: (609) 243--2606 | Fax: (609) 243--2662 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 17:51:38 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 18:33:07 EDT From: "Edward F. Keith" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ed@EFKPORT.KEW.COM Message-ID: <2c336624.efkport@efkport.kew.com> To: "Literate Programming List" Subject: re: Fweb and C++ On Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:36:15 -0400, "drs" wrote: > > If the purpose of LitProg is to communicate what we have done, then this is a > clear failure! Marcus has a web that is undecipherable to me, and even if I > manage to figure out this problem, that simply postpones the pain until next > time. > > So, the question is, in general, how do we make webs (and other tex files) > transportable? > SGML? it is an ISO standard. -EdK -- Ed Keith Telephone: 1(703)370-5217 U.S. Snail: 4535 Taney Ave. #201 Internet : ed@efkport.kew.com Alexandria, VA 22304 I am I, Don Quixote, The Lord of La Mancha . . . ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 18:39:41 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307012338.AA06451@laphroaig.aoc.nrao.edu> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 17:38:28 MDT From: Chris Flatters Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cflatter@AOC.NRAO.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: SGML (re: Fweb and C++) > On Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:36:15 -0400, "drs" wrote: > > > > If the purpose of LitProg is to communicate what we have done, then this is a > > clear failure! Marcus has a web that is undecipherable to me, and even if I > > manage to figure out this problem, that simply postpones the pain until next > > time. > > > > So, the question is, in general, how do we make webs (and other tex files) > > transportable? > > > SGML? it is an ISO standard. > SGML is changing the playing field a little from TeX. SGML is a markup language whereas TeX is a typesetting language. SGML describes the structure of a document (eg. the following word is an identifier) rather than its appearance (eg. the following word should appear in italic type). It would certainly make sense to have a WEB system that wove to SGML since we should really be more concerned with the content of a woven document than its appearance. It might be even more useful if it generated HTML (a version of SGML with hypertext extensions used for the World-Wide Web project). Chris Flatters cflatter@nrao.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 09:08:09 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 13:37:30 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9307021137.AA29538@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, drs@bach.pdb.bnl.gov Subject: Defense [was: Fweb and C++] References: <0096ECA4.CC11AAE0.4955@SHSU.edu> <9306301054.ZM3448@bach.pdb.bnl.gov> <9306301714.AA05306@x4u.desy.de> <9307011036.ZM7085@bach.pdb.bnl.gov> >>>>> On Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:36:15 -0400, drs@bach.pdb.bnl.gov (drs) said: |> Marcus and I decided that it probably is based on a difference in |> fwebmac.sty (?) files between his system and mine. His is hacked, |> mine fresh from the box Certainly I expressed myself wrongly in my answer -- the reason I couldnt help is a) lack of time to go through my shelves to find my collection of error reports, and b) that I did not get around to install the released FWEB v1.30a [yes, it's a shame]. Thus I did not feel like saying anything conclusive to Dave and merely proposed to have a look at a different Web - the sample he mentions is only for demonstration purposes [for WWW] to see what a nice job FWEB does [thanks, JAK!] -- Secondly, in February, I had problems with the NFSS extension of LaTeX which JAK could not reproduce. Alas, I did not have time to look into it -- but I assume there were no further reports to him. |> If the purpose of LitProg is to communicate what we have done, then |> this is a clear failure! Marcus has a web that is undecipherable to |> me, and even if I manage to figure out this problem, that simply |> postpones the pain until next time. I agree with Dave on this point -- I am sure with the detailed error report he will find help on this list ;-) I do NOT agree with JAK's opinion [recent message]: he undoubtedly does not have the time to answer questions on [La]TeX and would have to dismiss lots of justified newbie questions -- I plead for continued 'discussion' of what is trivial for experts and, once again, for some folks to take the lead and FINALLY realize quick'n dirty FAQs for the various processors around -- there's more than enough stuff in the archives -- a FAQ is the place for this kind of discussion. |> So, the question is, in general, how do we make webs (and other tex files) |> transportable? You may have noticed that inspite of extensive discussion earlier on this list there is no tendency to converge towards a unified tool -- which I personally regret [though I am happy with FWEB]. |> ... I will have to convince mgmt as well as some skeptical programmers |> that this is worthwhile, so I'd like some opinions on the general approach. You are right, I hope, people will answer -- there is enough brain on this net - my apologies for not helping myself again: gotta finish my Ph.D. Sympathetic, Marcus ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 09:24:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 00:06 PDT To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK Subject: How to use several modes in Emacs when writing for NUWEB? From: Kayvan Sylvan Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kayvan@SATYR.SYLVAN.COM The only ideas I have are: 1. Look at yacc-mode and see how it does its context sensitive mode switching and do a lot of Elisp hacking to suit your Latex/perl purpose. 2. Bind perl-mode and latex-mode to some quick keystrokes. This is far easier than number 1. ---Kayvan | Kayvan Sylvan, Sylvan Associates, kayvan@satyr.Sylvan.COM, (408) 978-1407 | | Consulting, Training, Development, SysAdmin, {BSD,SVr3,SVr4} Unix Systems | | "Think Globally, Act Locally." "Only you can make your dreams come true." | | Proud Dad of Katherine Yelena (born 8/8/89) & Robin Gregory (born 2/28/92) | ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 09:33:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 13:23:52 BST From: Manuel Carriba Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, M.Carriba@DCS.SHEFFIELD.AC.UK Message-ID: <9307021223.AA23152@dcs.shef.ac.uk> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Subject: Re: nuweb and page numbers preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) writes on Thu, 1 Jul 93 11:21:42 CDT: > > I think that pages numbers (or some sort) would be great. > However, I can't see a clean way to add them to nuweb. > The obvious approach is to use add a \label to each scrap > and use \pageref wherever I need to refer to a scrap > (in the crossreference lists and the indices). > Pagenumbering can be done if you look closer in the latex.sty/doc docs. The numbers for the scraps become very big, and it's quite undesireable to look 100 pages back for a scrap that is referenced on the next third chapter. To keep the numbers for the scraps small or local within a specific chapter on should use the \thechapter label in addition to the scrap numbering. An easy way to do this is to copy the part of the figure environment of latex.sty/doc and include it in the tangle process. So you will have `scrap 3.11' to denote a scrap number 11 in chapter 3. If you use the article style option you simple keep the usual scrap numbering. See the part (or parts `book/report' , `article' , and) `figure' for more details. ~~~~~~ With this option you can easily maintain programs written in different programming languages. You can put all your C source in chapter X and all your Pascal source in chapter Y. > Unfortunately, I can't eliminate duplicates before running latex > and I think the lists will look really ugly with lots of duplicate > page numbers. However, it's an easy experiment if someone wants to > try it. > To much pagenumbering makes your document not easy to read, but more complicated. If you want to add a pagenumber you can easily use the \pageref in addition to your \ref command if you've a \label mechanism in all your scraps. > An alternative that might work out would be to inspect the .aux file > created by latex. It'll have all the labels and page numbers from the > last run of latex and therefore should be reasonably close. That's what I mean. If you want to refer to an important part of your scrap and detail it with a pagenumber you can do so, otherwise omit it. Manuel ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 09:51:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307020055.AA24772@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK CC: alien@ESSEX.AC.UK Subject: Re: Are modules necessary? Date: Thu, 01 Jul 93 20:55:38 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > Putting implementation issues aside -- what is the most convenient label > of modules for using a Web? In my experience reading TeX and METAFONT, module numbers drove me nuts. I propose labelling each code chunk with the page number of its first definition. If more than one code chunk is defined on a page, the page numbers should have lower-case letters appended; e.g., 17a, 17b, 17c. Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 10:47:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: dentato@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@MINERVA.ING.UNIROMA1.IT Message-ID: <9307021548.AA13251@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it> Subject: Re: Fweb and C++ To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ed@EFKPORT.KEW.COM Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 17:48:13 +0100 (DFT) Content-Type: text >> >> how do we make webs (and other tex files) transportable? >> SGML? it is an ISO standard. What is SGML? (OK, it's an ISO standard, but what's about?) ___ __ //_/// \ // \//__/ dentato@cadgroup.ing.uniroma1.it Remo Dentato ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 11:16:59 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 12:15:00 -0400 From: vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil (Contr Karl Vogel) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, vogelke@C-17IGP.WPAFB.AF.MIL Return-Path: Message-ID: <9307021615.AA19089@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: SGML (re: Fweb and C++) >> On Thu, 1 Jul 93 17:38:28 MDT, >> Chris Flatters said: Chris> It would certainly make sense to have a WEB system that wove to SGML Chris> since we should really be more concerned with the content of a woven Chris> document than its appearance. This definitely gets my vote. The nicest thing about SGML is the fact that parsers for it are freely available. I can write something to turn valid SGML into Texinfo or Troff a lot more easily than I can write something to manipulate (say) a given style of WEB code. The best thing about SGML is that it can be used to generate several representations of any document. You can have a driver that reads an SGML document and generates output suitable for printing, or ready-to-compile code, or a hypertext representation of your program intended for easy browsing. Chris> It might be even more useful if it generated HTML (a version of SGML Chris> with hypertext extensions used for the World-Wide Web project). I have one minor quibble with this idea. How stable is the HTML document definition? It won't help us if the rules for creating an HTLM document are too fluid. We might be better off creating a document definition which is solely intended for literate programming types. This way, we have more control over our own destiny; the HTML folks can do what they like, and it won't hurt us a bit. I'm not saying that we couldn't borrow ideas from them; I just don't think we should tie our destiny to a style of document representation that's rooted in information retrieval rather than programming. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 2970 Presidential Drive 513-255-7383 x4298 Fairborn, OH 45324 A car is useless in New York, essential everywhere else. The same with good manners. --Ron "Asbestos" Dippold ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 12:12:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307021709.AA15013@netmail.microsoft.com> From: Eric Landes Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ericla@MICROSOFT.COM To: LITPROG@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 10:06:40 PDT Subject: Microsoft Windows versions of FWEB 1.30a I don't know if people on this list are interested, but I've built Microsoft Windows versions of FWEB 1.30a. They were built with Visual C++ as QuickWin applications, and work very well when attached to the Tools menu of Visual C++. If you want to do this yourself, all you need to do is add the following compiler switches: /Gx- /f- /Mq and link with LLIBCEWQ.LIB instead of LLIBCE.LIB. I also optimized for speed with /O2. I can either email the binaries to interested parties, or if the demand is too great, I'll put them on an FTP site. Eric Landes ericla@microsoft.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 12:15:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 12:15:02 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: preston@cs.rice.edu CC: litprog@SHSU.edu, schoepf@sc.zib-berlin.de Message-ID: <0096EE5A.FAC3C640.15733@SHSU.edu> Subject: Nuweb 0.8 available at SHSU On Thu, 1 Jul 93 20:24:41 CDT, Preston Briggs posted: > Here's a new version of nuweb (using noweb-style page numbering for the > scraps). If you could put it out for public consumption, I'd appreciate > it. > > I've called this version 0.8, hoping someday to progress to 1.0, with > complete documentation. Changes from previous versions include: > > slightly improved typesetting in some odd corners. > > a new command-line flag, -v (for verbose), which causes > nuweb to write progress information to stdout. > > I've removed calls to chmod() as being too system dependent. > > I've cleaned up the C, adding several externs, statics, and > a global.h file. > > I've hopefully solved the problem of naming temporary files > (using calls to tempnam()), though at least one tester has had > to hack this area. > > Most significantly, scraps are now uniformly referred to using > a noweb-style page-numbering scheme. > > There are a few other ideas people have sent along that didn't make it into > this release. They haven't been forgotten; hopefully, I'll get to them > soon. > > regards, > Preston Thanks for the update. I have unpacked the files for ftp retrieval on ftp.shsu.edu into tex-archive/web/nuweb/ (which is the nuweb entry on SHSU's gopher server based at Niord.SHSU.edu). I've also placed the files (as well as all other files -- samples, msdos, etc.) in /pub/archive/web/nuweb at ftp.tex.ac.uk. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 12:52:06 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307021215.AA11003@petrus.grenoble.hp.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Use WEB in a business context (was Re: FWEB and C++ ) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 93 14:15:31 +0200 From: Dominique Dumont / GND Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, domi@PETRUS.GRENOBLE.HP.COM In message John Krommes writes : > Regarding this latter issue, I feel that if a language such as Fortran or C > is supported, use of a language-sensitive processor is far superior to an > insensitive one, for the reasons mentioned recently by Bart Childs. > However, it is clearly impractical to support all possible languages, so > tools such as NUWEB certainly have their place. I expect that the next > release of FWEB will offer a ``no-language'' option, implemented as one of > FWEB's multiple languages. This is a straightforward extension of FWEB's > meta-comment facilities and will enable one to move between language > sensitivity and NUWEB-type output at will. > Since I work in a company, I have other mandatory requirements to be able to use a Literate programming system : - the new method must be totally transparent ot others people in my group, so I must be able to tangle the web into a readable code with a certain amounts of comments (I don't know how much or if I can let TeX commands in the comments of the new generated source). May be I should also be able to mix classical program and literate ones. - The code must be supportable by other people (others engineers, technical marketing people) without a web system. - I must be able to use it along with others software development tools : softbench, debuggers (I don't know yet what are the impacts for the web tools) One future feature is to be able to generate man pages from the web along with the code and the tangled doc. Without that I will only be able to use noweb if I want to program in a literary way. From what I read on this list, people from university have different requirements for their coding style compared to factory people. University guys tend to write monolithic programs which are seldom reused and are used by a few people. (University guys can flame at will if I'm wrong :-) ) Whereas we write programs composed of several chunks written by different people with different coding styles (sometimes with differents languages). Furthermore our programs are sold so they are used by a huge amount of people for several years sometimes tens of years. So the program must be designed to be still upgradable in 10 or 20 years. Nobody knows what will be left of WEB systems in the next century, and we can't afford to support public domains tools , so we cannot take the risk to write programs which depends on WEB to be upgraded. So at the end of a developemnt I must provide a readable source codes with consistents comments. (I don't think some LaTeX command here and there, or line numbers comments are a problem, The aim is that the program must be understandable without WEB tools). In fact, what my boss says is that I can use WEB if it transparent to other people. What do you, factory people, think of a WEB system in a business context ? What are your requirements to be able to use it ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Dominique Dumont ^^^^^^ Email: Dominique_Dumont@grenoble.hp.com / O O \ HP Desk: Dominique DUMONT / HP6300/UM ( \____/ ) Address : HEWLETT PACKARD, 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 FRANCE \______/ Tel,Telnet: (33) 76 62 57 24 - 7 779 5724 Telex,Fax: 980 124 - (33) 76 62 53 20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 13:01:15 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 13:00:23 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <0096EE61.50277540.16675@SHSU.edu> Subject: Re: Where is SpiderWeb's webkernel.tex? On Wed, 30 Jun 93 12:04:11 -0400, Norman Ramsey posted: > Oops. Mea culpa. I include the missing file at the end of this message. > George, perhaps you would be kind enough either to pick it up here and park > it in spiderweb/src, or to grab a new spiderweb.tar.Z from > csservices.princeton.edu:pub? Taken care of at ftp.shsu.edu (aka pip.shsu.edu). I also updated the pub/archive/web/spiderweb/... directory at ftp.tex.ac.uk while I was at it. --George ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 16:39:17 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 02 Jul 93 21:01:42 GMT Message-ID: <9316@apusapus.demon.co.uk> From: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk (Trevor Jenkins) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tfj@APUSAPUS.DEMON.CO.UK To: LitProg@shsu.edu CC: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: re: Fweb and C++ In message <2c336624.efkport@efkport.kew.com> you write: > On Thu, 1 Jul 1993 10:36:15 -0400, "drs" wrote: > > > > If the purpose of LitProg is to communicate what we have done, then this is a > > clear failure! Marcus has a web that is undecipherable to me, and even if I > > manage to figure out this problem, that simply postpones the pain until next > > time. > SGML? it is an ISO standard. Back in the days before the ISO 8879 (SGML) was published I was a member of the British committee that participated in the work. For the technical report on using SGML I had proposed that an example SGML DTD be written which would allow WEB files to be analysed. I even volunteered to write it. My fellow committee members didn't see WEB as sophisticated enough---they wanted a DTD for Z instead. Not being a Z expert I dropped the idea. Their interest in Z was such that they didn't do anything either. On reflection I wished that I had persevered with the WEB one. :-( Regards, Trevor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trevor Jenkins Re: "deemed!" 134 Frankland Rd, Croxley Green, RICKMANSWORTH, WD3 3AU, England email: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk phone: +44 (0)923 776436 radio: G6AJG "We need bigger and better books", Jimmy Tingle (Damned in the USA) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 16:59:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 16:56:49 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9307022156.AA22700@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: mail address I apologize for disturbing everyone; but... I've got a mail message I can't reply to, from Bryan Oakley. If you could send me mail with a better em-mail address (hopefully not containing UUCP), I'll get back to you. Preston ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 22:06:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1993 22:55:42 -0400 (EDT) From: j_mcarthur@BIX.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, j_mcarthur@BIX.COM Subject: SGML and TeX To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307022255.memo.85394@BIX.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >SGML is changing the playing field a little from TeX. SGML is a markup >language whereas TeX is a typesetting language. SGML describes the >structure of a document (eg. the following word is an identifier) >rather than its appearance (eg. the following word should appear in >italic type). Just a few comments about SGML. First, there are a lot of misconceptions about SGML. I know, I have had to learn a tremendous amount in the past few weeks since I am now working on a massive SGML job. TeX and SGML go together very nicely. I am currently feeding raw SGML files into TeX and typesetting them. If are willing to write some macros and play with catcodes you can relatively easilly typeset SGML documents with TeX without the need for any pre-processor. The much more serious problem with SGML is that it is almost impossible to edit. Let me give you an idea. This is from a real sgml document that am printing via TeX: HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTSHazardous ComponentsOSHA PELACGIH TLVCAS Number Calcium Carbonate3.75 mg/m3 1.4 mg/m3 resp. dust10 mg/m31317-65-3 Pyrophyllite 50 mppcf12269-78-2 Muscovite (MICA)20 mppcf 1318-94-1 Kaolinite 50 mppcf0.1 mg/m31332-58-7 Quartz (total) 30 mg/m3 /(% quartz +2) 0.1 mg/m314808-60-7
 This is an extreem example. Part of the problem is caused because SGML does not normally break the file into separate lines. It is not unusual to run into a 200K SGML file without a single line feed (or carridge return, or cr/lf, or carridge control, all depending on what OS you are running under). This breaks a lot of tools (including TeX). Another thing to realize is that it is possible to have commands for italic, bold, and so on in an SGML file. is not an uncommon tag. Also the move verbose is also found. Now the first example was a bit nasty because it had a table in it. So here is a second example, from the same document, that is a bit easier to deal with: GENERAL CONTROL MEASURES VentilationNone other than normal with ordinary use.Respiratory ProtectionNone with ordinary use. If prolonged exposure, wear a MSHA/NIOSH approved dust/pesticide respirator. Avoid breathing dust. Protective Gloves None with ordinary use. If handling spill, wear impervious gloves. Eye ProtectionNone with normal use. Wear safety glasses with side shields or goggles if eye contact is possible.Other Protective Clothing and EquipmentTo avoid contact with skin, wear protective apparel during application. This is much more code intensive than TeX. This is why SGML tools try and and allow you to edit without the tags (Author/Editor for example). One final thought. SGML can be viewed as a meta-markup-language. You can define you own mark-up scheme in SGML if you are willing to change the characterset (allowed in SGML) and so on. I bet, if you were seriously ambitious, you could almost write a DTD for WEB (classic Pascal WEB). Jeffrey McArthur ATLIS Publishing phone: (301) 210-6655 12001 Indian Creek Court fax: (301) 210-4999 Beltsville, MD 20705 EMAIL: j_mcarthur@bix.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 06:01:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 03 Jul 93 11:47:00 GMT Message-ID: <9383@apusapus.demon.co.uk> From: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk (Trevor Jenkins) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tfj@APUSAPUS.DEMON.CO.UK To: LitProg@shsu.edu CC: j_mcarthur@bix.com, tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: SGML and TeX In message <9307022255.memo.85394@BIX.com> you write: > Just a few comments about SGML. First, there are a lot of misconceptions > about SGML. I know, I have had to learn a tremendous amount in the past > few weeks since I am now working on a massive SGML job. SGML has always been plauged by this problem. During my stint in the international standards work the problem was from the office people (ODA/ODIF ISO 8613) who felt threatened tht SGML was encroaching upon their remit. It doesn't in that SGML is aimed at high-end publishing where as ODA/ODIF was aimed at the typical character-cell based office environment (_personally_ I always felt that what ever the ODA crew were adding into their architecture SGML already did and better. :-) > The much more serious problem with SGML is that it is almost impossible > to edit. Let me give you an idea. That isn't really a problem with the Standard Generalized Markup _Language_. If it were then one could make the same complaint about programming languages, eg C, Pascal or even (dare I say it) Literate Code. The work that Mike Cowlishaw (IBM) did for the OED project demonstrated that an SGML oriented editing system ca be created and use with a very complex document. > ....Part of the problem is caused because > SGML does not normally break the file into separate lines. Again it does need to. Consider the output from TANGLE where there is the same problem. If you automated text-generation then you will end up with output that is impossible for human beings to read. > It > is not unusual to run into a 200K SGML file without a single > line feed (or carridge return, or cr/lf, or carridge control, all > depending on what OS you are running under). This breaks a lot > of tools (including TeX). I have received mail and news message which break my mailer/news-reader that is not the fault of the message (which by the way didn't exceed the minimum limits imposed by the appropriate RFCs) but rather laziness on the part of the programmer. (I didn't really mean to insult DEK by that comment :-) > Another thing to realize is that it is possible to have commands > for italic, bold, and so on in an SGML file. is not > an uncommon tag. Then its wrong. > Also the move verbose is > also found. This is the purist-style and is indeed what the text of ISO 8879 mandates. Not that it is possible to check for it. > One final thought. SGML can be viewed as a meta-markup-language. > You can define you own mark-up scheme in SGML if you are willing > to change the characterset (allowed in SGML) and so on. SGML includes both a mechanism for specifying the structure of a document (your meta-markup) AND how a document should be encoded so as to conform to that structure. With public entity texts it is possible to create an SGML that doesn't include the specific DTD being used though it must be available when the document is processed. > I bet, > if you were seriously ambitious, you could almost write a DTD for > WEB (classic Pascal WEB). I don't think that the task is that "ambitious". Nor do I think that it need to be limited to classic Pascal WEB. Now I have to go off and prove it dont I. ;-) Regards, Trevor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trevor Jenkins Re: "deemed!" 134 Frankland Rd, Croxley Green, RICKMANSWORTH, WD3 3AU, England email: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk phone: +44 (0)923 776436 radio: G6AJG "We need bigger and better books", Jimmy Tingle (Damned in the USA) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 07:04:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307031202.AA27328@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 14:02:58 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Hello everybody, Lately, I noticed that the number of messages on this mailing list has grown considerably, which led me to think about whether it wouldn't make sense to create a newsgroup for it. Judging from the number of subscribers, there should be a good chance of getting a sufficient majority for the creation of a group in the comp hierarchy. IMHO, a newsgroup has many advantages over a mailing list: - Newsreaders are more effective at dealing with considerable numbers of messages than Mail readers by using techniques such as threading and killfiles. - Having a newsgroup would advertise literate programming to a wider audience. - I personally prefer reading mail as soon as possible, while I read news at less frequent intervals, and I could imagine that others have similar preferences. A disadvantage of newsgroups is certainly that not everybody who has mail can read news. I think, tough, that this could be overcome by having a News <-> Mail gateway, as it is done for a few other groups. As for the name of the group, I think that comp.programming.literate might be appropriate. What do others think about this idea? Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "And that's why I am going to turn this world upside down, and make of it a fire so *bright* that someone real will notice" -- Vernor Vinge, _Tatja Grimm's World_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 07:30:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 14:28:46 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9307031228.AA09651@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch Subject: Time for creating a newsgroup ? References: <199307031202.AA27328@yggdrasil> >>>>> On Sat, 03 Jul 1993 14:02:58 +0200, Matthias Ulrich Neeracher said: |> Lately, I noticed that the number of messages on this mailing list has grown |> considerably, which led me to think about whether it wouldn't make sense to |> create a newsgroup for it. |> Judging from the number of subscribers, there should be a good chance of |> getting a sufficient majority for the creation of a group in the comp |> hierarchy. |> As for the name of the group, I think that comp.programming.literate might be |> appropriate. |> What do others think about this idea? I agree, especially because this would ease making contact between people who only want to be helped with their specific tool -- the wizards could concentrate on meta-topics. Though I think everyone should be free to ask *any* question, I must admit that a long discussion on the tool I am never going to use is difficult to take. I offer to adapt the FWEB FAQ [after its update to v1.30a.....] which I'm maintaining to the USEnet FAQ guidelines. It should also be mentioned that the newsgroups are embedded in WWW already, which has a LitProg page [ http://info.desy.de:80/pub/www/projects/LitProg.html ]. If there is sufficient interest, I'd like Matthias to explain the procedere. The name is fine. --Marcus Speh -- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 15:30:28 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 15:29:10 -0500 From: Cameron Smith Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cameron@SYMCOM.MATH.UIUC.EDU Message-ID: <199307032029.AA12286@symcom.math.uiuc.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? I would *love* it if this group became a newsgroup. I know that there are many who can receive email who can't get USENET, but our beloved list administrator has already solved that problem for the Info-TeX <-> comp.text.tex connection, so I can't imagine it would be any harder for the LitProg <-> comp.programming.literate connection. That would allow email support to continue for those who need it while letting those who can use USENET have the advantages of that approach. I used to post frequently to this group (when it first started up), but now I have a hard time keeping up with it (I'm *much* busier than I was a year ago), and the threading and archiving and searching facilities that newsreaders typically offer would be a BIG advantage for me in keeping up with the group and in finding old articles that I wanted to refer to. --Cameron Smith cameron@symcom.math.uiuc.edu P.S. I just recently finished a very large TeX consulting project that involved literately documenting 1500 lines of TeX code and a few hundred lines of shell scripts, AWK programs, and other stuff. I used Mittelbach's doc.sty for the TeX stuff and Norm Ramsey's NOWEB (with many adjustments for personal preference) for the rest. Both systems performed excellently. I liked the line numbers and index in doc.sty; and I was happy to sacrifice the language-specific goodies in exchange for NOWEB's flexibility in allowing me to document any file of any kind. Literate techniques made my job easier and the beautiful documentation made my client *VERY* happy! ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 16:32:15 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK Message-ID: <9307032131.AA13119@imada.ou.dk> Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 23:31:01 MET DST Matthias Ulrich Neeracher | Lately, I noticed that the number of messages on this mailing list has grown | considerably, which led me to think about whether it wouldn't make sense to | create a newsgroup for it. I think it is a good idea. Spreading the word is much more easy on the news than on a subscription-based mailservice, but I like the archive facilities better of my mail reader, so I would probably use both mail and news. My recent request on the news [for Emacs stuff with a boring header] has made three people ask about Nuweb and Literate programming, so if this is an indication I think it is a good one. | Judging from the number of subscribers, there should be a good chance of | getting a sufficient majority for the creation of a group in the comp | hierarchy. What is the actual rules for this [I know -- it is probably in a FAQ] but a summary would be nice. | A disadvantage of newsgroups is certainly that not everybody who has mail can | read news. I think, tough, that this could be overcome by having a News <-> | Mail gateway, as it is done for a few other groups. Is this available on Niord, George? | As for the name of the group, I think that comp.programming.literate might be | appropriate. Yes. Regards, -- Thorbj{\o}rn Andersen ravn@imada.ou.dk ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 21:19:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 22:17:50 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, mckearney_s@bt-web.bt.co.uk Subject: Re: Are modules necessary? Message-ID: ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 21:27:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 22:26:09 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, mckearney_s@bt-web.bt.co.uk Subject: Re: Are modules necessary? Message-ID: Stephen Mc Kearney writes: > I have developed a WEB for Word system, based around the WORDWEB > developed elsewhere, that does almost everything most WEB systems do > including : cross-references, code indexes, find definition, etc. As the author of the original (primitive) WORDWEB system, I would be interested in seeing what you came up with. > Some people here have been using it and we have come to the conclusion > that the formal structure of Text Part - Code Part is unnecessary in > this WYSIWYG environment. Having code chunks appear throughout the > text seems to lead to a slightly different style of programming. > Does anyone else feel that the numbered module structure is more than > simply a carry over from the parsing of the source file in the > original WEB? Cross-references can be handled using page numbers etc. I agree. My noweb style is quite different from my CWEB style. I rely on LaTeX for structuring noweb programs. Each style has something to recommend it, though. It's a lot easier to find a referenced chunk when the reference refers to a section rather than a page (noweb's noxref generates page references; I've experimented with using \ref instead of \pageref, but unless each section is kept very small, it's harder to deal with than the page numbers). > Before someone goes on about how much better TeX is over Word, etc I > should say that if I had a free choice it would be TeX/LaTeX and in > my environment most people will not move away from WYSIWYG > environments. You might be interested in my experiences at Tipton Cole + Co. using WORDWEB. A few people (who were diehard WYSIWYGers) started using WORDWEB (including Tipton, the boss), but found that the advantages of noweb/LaTeX far outweighed the advantages of the WYSIWYG world. TCC seems to be moving in the direction of a ``literate programming shop,'' using noweb. I'd be glad to put my boss in contact with your boss, if you think it would help. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 22:52:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 23:50:56 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, domi@petrus.grenoble.hp.com Subject: Re: Use WEB in a business context (was Re: FWEB and C++ ) Message-ID: Dominique Dumont writes: >Since I work in a company, I have other mandatory requirements to be able >to use a Literate programming system : >- the new method must be totally transparent ot others people in my group, so I > must be able to tangle the web into a readable code with a certain amounts of > comments (I don't know how much or if I can let TeX commands in the comments > of the new generated source). May be I should also be able to mix classical > program and literate ones. >- The code must be supportable by other people (others engineers, technical > marketing people) without a web system. >- I must be able to use it along with others software development tools : > softbench, debuggers (I don't know yet what are the impacts for the web tools) I've just spent the best part of a year trying to introduce LP techniques (via noweb) in a business environment. noweb has the "nountangle" tool to help meet your first criterion. The second 2 have turned out not to be quite so important, as we have been programming for Paradox, a system notoriously short of decent tools. However, we have been able to use the ``standard'' Unix tools (awk, grep, make, etc., in DOS versions) to ease software development somewhat. >One future feature is to be able to generate man pages from the web along with >the code and the tangled doc. We use a slightly modified manpage.sty file. All our webs follow pretty much the same structure (LaTeXish commands): \maketitle % a title page followed by a copyright/version control info page \makecontents % a table of contents \part{Interface} % manual pages go here \part{Implementation} % the web proper goes here >Without that I will only be able to use noweb if I want to program in a literary >way. >From what I read on this list, people from university have different requirements >for their coding style compared to factory people. University guys tend to >write monolithic programs which are seldom reused and are used by a few people. >(University guys can flame at will if I'm wrong :-) ) I'm a university guy, but I understand what you're saying here. >Whereas we write programs composed of several chunks written by different people >with different coding styles (sometimes with differents languages). Furthermore >our programs are sold so they are used by a huge amount of people for several years >sometimes tens of years. So the program must be designed to be still upgradable >in 10 or 20 years. Nobody knows what will be left of WEB systems in the next >century, and we can't afford to support public domains tools , so we cannot take >the risk to write programs which depends on WEB to be upgraded. So at the end >of a developemnt I must provide a readable source codes with consistents comments. >(I don't think some LaTeX command here and there, or line numbers comments are a >problem, The aim is that the program must be understandable without WEB tools). The people I've been working with are just starting on the LP experiment, but seem committed to it. noweb has 2 advantanges here: (1) it's made up of several very simple tools that are quite easy to maintain yourself (I speak from experience here -- I had to port noweb to MS-DOS, which was surprisingly simple from the noweb side, although a bit of a pain due to DOS restrictions -- I've found it quite easy to to hack a new feature to noweb the few times I've needed to), and (2) you can use nountangle to ``undo'' your webs into (more or less) normally documented programs if the experiment fails. >In fact, what my boss says is that I can use WEB if it transparent to other people. What I did was just to use noweb for my stuff and pass the programs around for comment. I finally got one of my coworkers to try it as well (a skeleton web and a one page summary of the necessary commands -- @ and <<>> for noweb; \section (etc.), \em, and the special TeX characters for LaTeX -- were all that was needed to get him started). He was soon converted, and that got everyone else interested. After a brief fling with WinWordWEB, the shop seems to have settled on noweb. It seems to have been a classic example of what Grace Hopper used to refer to as ``the necessity of educating our bosses'' (and coworkers, in this case). LP seems to be one of those things that seem to be more trouble than they're worth until you try them -- then you wonder how you got along without them. Anybody else remember the effort it took to abandon your trusty line-oriented editors and use a screen editor? >What do you, factory people, think of a WEB system in a business context ? >What are your requirements to be able to use it ? I, too, would like to hear from ``factory people.'' -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 22:58:41 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 23:57:33 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Message-ID: Matthias Neeracher has suggested that we set up a newsgroup to replace our discussions via email. Personally, I find newsgroups uncomfortable, and quite enjoy the ``feel'' of an email discussion. I vote to keep things as they are. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 23:38:57 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 0:37:49 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, stevef@ttsi.tandem.com Subject: Re: WYSIWYG WEB system? Message-ID: Steve Farmer asks: > Are any of these WYSIWYG WEB systems available through anonymous ftp? I > understand that current word-processors are not ideal, but I think there > is a lot of potential in WYSIWYG that I would like to explore. The original WinWordWEB is available as WORDWEB.ZIP in the pub/leew directory of bart.kean.edu. I think it's available at some other sites as well, but I don't recall wehere. Bart is not really set up for any large-scale ftp service; it's just the only machine I have access to on which I can make stuff available to others. If anyone knows of another site for WinWordWEB, please let post a notice, as I'd prefer to keep traffic down to a minimum on bart. If Stephen McKearney will send me a floppy with his new version on it in care of Computer Science Department Kean College of New Jersey Union, NJ 07083 I'll be glad to make it available as well (or, better still, I could post it to the appropriate mirror site). -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1993 08:59:33 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 09:56:21 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9307041356.AA13305@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET CC: LitProg@shsu.edu, stevef@ttsi.tandem.com Subject: Re: WYSIWYG WEB system? Why dont you put it on pip.shsu.edu /incoming and drop a line to George and he will put somewhere eveyone can access. It may already be there! Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1993 11:21:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 04 Jul 93 12:23:05 GMT Message-ID: <288@soliton.demon.co.uk> From: Ian Cargill Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ian@soliton.demon.co.uk To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? In message you write: > Matthias Neeracher has suggested that we set up a newsgroup to replace our > discussions via email. Personally, I find newsgroups uncomfortable, and > quite enjoy the ``feel'' of an email discussion. I vote to keep things as > they are. > I vote for a newsgroup. Why? well... Personally, I find the 'feel' of a newsgroup discussion much the same as the 'feel' of an email discussion. There is, I would admit, a psychological aspect; a warm fuzzy feeling from belonging to a para-exclusive (?) community. For me, however, the extra features of mail, *PARTICULARLY* threads, are more important. I also dislike having 'normal' mail swamped by the mailing list stuff. ================================================================= Ian Cargill Email: ian@soliton.demon.co.uk Phone: +44 (0)372 375529 (Home), +44 (0)71 510 7875 (Work) ----------------------------------------------------------------- C Users Group (UK): For Serious C & C++ Users (Mail for details) ================================================================= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1993 13:54:07 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 4 Jul 93 14:52:57 -0400 From: vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil (Contr Karl Vogel) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, vogelke@C-17IGP.WPAFB.AF.MIL Return-Path: Message-ID: <9307041852.AA03659@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Time for creating a newsgroup ? >> On Sat, 3 Jul 93 23:31:01 MET DST, >> Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen said: Thorbjoern> I think [creating a newsgroup] is a good idea. Spreading the Thorbjoern> word is much more easy on the news than on a subscription-based Thorbjoern> mailservice, but I like the archive facilities better of my mail Thorbjoern> reader, so I would probably use both mail and news. I also like the idea of creating a newsgroup. I use a program called "pgnews" to read any new messages posted to several different groups, and then place those messages into an appropriately formatted mail file. This way, I can just browse the group using "nn" if I'm in a hurry, or I can look at everything with my favorite mail handler if I have more time. "pgnews" is written in PERL, and it works for sites that get their news via NNTP. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 2970 Presidential Drive 513-255-7383 x4298 Fairborn, OH 45324 If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. --Steven Wright ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1993 16:20:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307042119.AA16431@gauge.phys.uva.nl> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 23:19:22 +0200 Return-Path: From: hetrick@phys.uva.nl (Jim Hetrick) To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, hetrick@phys.uva.nl Newsgroup vote: yes! <>------------------------------<*>---------------------------------<> James E. Hetrick Institute for Theoretical Physics hetrick@phys.uva.nl University of Amsterdam ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1993 02:59:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 09:58:01 +0200 From: se_haux@rcvie.co.at (Michael Haux) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, se_haux@RCVIE.CO.AT Message-ID: <9307050758.AA20405@rcsun1.rcvie.co.at> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? YES for a newsgroup! Michael Haux, Internet: Michael.Haux@rcvie.co.at =================================================================================== V Software Engineering Department +-----------------------+ Alcatel Austria Forschungszentrum GmbH | A L C A T E L | Ruthnergasse 1-7, A-1210 Vienna, Austria/EUROPE +-----------------------+ Voice: +43 1 39 16 21 362 Fax: +43 1 39 14 52 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1993 03:09:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307050808.AA03888@betty.fwi.uva.nl> Return-Path: To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, vogelke@C-17IGP.WPAFB.AF.MIL CC: visser@fwi.uva.nl Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Date: Mon, 05 Jul 93 10:08:08 +0200 From: Eelco Visser Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, visser@FWI.UVA.NL Unconditionally: yes Eelco ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1993 15:02:24 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1993 15:01:58 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET Message-ID: <0096F0CD.CBF82E80.23463@SHSU.edu> Subject: Re: WYSIWYG WEB system? On Sun, 4 Jul 93 0:37:49 EDT, Lee Wittenberg posted: > > Are any of these WYSIWYG WEB systems available through anonymous ftp? I > > understand that current word-processors are not ideal, but I think there > > is a lot of potential in WYSIWYG that I would like to explore. > > The original WinWordWEB is available as WORDWEB.ZIP in the pub/leew > directory of bart.kean.edu. I think it's available at some other sites as > well, but I don't recall wehere. Bart is not really set up for any > large-scale ftp service; it's just the only machine I have access to on > which I can make stuff available to others. If anyone knows of another > site for WinWordWEB, please let post a notice, as I'd prefer to keep > traffic down to a minimum on bart. I have it for ftp, mail, and gopher use on Niord (just added the gopher -- sorry for the prior omission). Via e-mail: SENDME WORDWEB in the body of a mail message to FILESERV@SHSU.BITNET (FILESERV@SHSU.edu) will get a UUENCODEd ZIP archive. Anonymous ftp: Niord.SHSU.edu:[FILESERV.WORDWEB] Gopher: Niord.SHSU.edu (port 70) TeX-related Materials/ Literate Programming Library/ WinWordWEB (WORDWEB)/ Will see about placement for ftp on ftp.shsu.edu -- but it's definitely on Niord now. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 08:17:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307061316.AA00882@mucket.vast.unsw.edu.au> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET CC: stevea@vast.unsw.edu.au Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 23:15:59 +1000 From: Steve Avery Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, stevea@VAST.UNSW.EDU.AU Lee votes no on the newsgroup proposal. I tend to agree. From previous experience of lists that have gone to newsgroups, the signal to noise ratio tends to increase by at least an order of magnitude. The only way around this is to have a moderated group, and I wouldn't wish that task on anyone. Another problem which I have seen on some newsgroups, and which may occur on the proposed newsgroup, is that people resent a lot of traffic coming from a small group of people (the "in crowd" so to speak). As that seems to be the case on this list, it is likely to remain the case in a newsgroup, and the flamage which may result may drive these people away. Just a pessimistic thought. I like a mailing list. It makes it easier to reply to people without incurring the wrath of a larger audience... cheers -steve ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 10:33:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307061525.AA12380@mri.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, gafter@mri.com (Neal M Gafter) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 93 08:25:26 -0700 From: gafter@mri.com I agree and would support the creation of such a newsgroup. Regards, Neal ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 10:55:56 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 10:58:34 CDT From: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu (Stephen A. Fulling) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, fulling@SARASTRO.MATH.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9307061558.AA00393@sarastro.math.tamu.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re:Are modules necessary? CC: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu mckearney_s@BT-WEB.BT.CO.UK writes: >As for modules etc. the code we are producing does not seem to need >numbering of modules and when you abandon numbering you seem to end up >with something closer to a 'book'. I think this is because the >numbered module idea seems to set you thinking afresh for each module >while without numbers the document feels more like a flowing >description. I get this feeling from most LP programs I have read >that have been published. It occurred to me that this difference in style and taste is related to the difference in the way mathematicians, as opposed to mathematical scientists, write papers and books. Hard-core mathematics is written in little chunks, often numbered, and always labeled "Definition", "Theorem", "Proof", "Example", etc. Theoretical physicists write ordinary, discursive, stream-of-consciousness prose frequently interrupted by displayed equations. This difference has something to do with subject matter [How often does a physicist genuinely prove a theorem? :-) ] but it also has a lot to do with habit, tradition, and taste. Being raised as a physicist, I have to make a conscious effort to remind myself to write in the mathematical style; but I certainly recognize its advantages in certain circumstances. To my mind, one of the advantages of the modularized LitProg paradigm is precisely that it "sets you thinking afresh" by isolating each main idea or task in a separate piece, while also showing how that piece plugs into the larger structure. But, just as in my physics-oriented papers, there may be circumstances where the "flowing description" is more appropriate. Steve Fulling ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 11:01:30 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 08:54:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Flanagan Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, flanagan@AMATH.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, stevea@vast.unsw.edu.au Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Discussions of signal to noise ratio in mailing lists tend to degrade same. --Jim ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 11:10:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, wald@THEORY.LCS.MIT.EDU Date: Tue, 06 Jul 93 12:03:56 EDT Message-ID: <199307061603.AA00334@roc.lcs.mit.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? In <9307032131.AA13119@imada.ou.dk> Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen writes: > >Matthias Ulrich Neeracher >| Judging from the number of subscribers, there should be a good >| chance of getting a sufficient majority for the creation of a group >| in the comp hierarchy. > >What is the actual rules for this [I know -- it is probably in a FAQ] >but a summary would be nice. Here's a brief summary of the newsgroup creation process. The full guidelines are available by ftp and mail server from rtfm.mit.edu, in pub/usenet/news.announce.newusers. 1) A request for discussion, including the proposed name and charter of the group is posted on news.announce.newgroups and any other relevant groups. 2) Discussion ensues on news.groups, during which people will make suggestions about the charter, the name, and the appropriateness of the proposed newsgroup, as well as the ancestry and personal habits of the proponents. 3) If/when discussion settles down, and a consensus has been reached on the name and charter, a call for votes is posted on news.announce.newgroups. 4) At the end of the voting period (21-31 days), the ballots are counted. The group passes if it has a 2/3 majority of yes-votes over no-votes as well as 100 more yes-votes than no-votes. 5) If the group passes, then, if there are no serious procedural objections after a 5-day waiting period, the group is created. -David ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 13:06:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 13:29:47 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9307061729.AA16870@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Time for creating a newsgroup ? I dont care if people who cannot access news (like me) are hooked in somehow through the mail system. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 14:53:01 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307061951.AA11557@math.berkeley.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? CC: levy@math.berkeley.edu Date: Tue, 06 Jul 93 12:51:14 -0700 From: Silvio Levy Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, levy@MATH.BERKELEY.EDU This discussion itself is a good indication that we need to switch to a newsgroup. There have been over 30 posts -- it wish I were able to kill the thread. Silvio ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 16:55:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 13:35:26 CDT From: iapa!ctrbdo@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, iapa!ctrbdo@MAILHOST.ECN.UOKNOR.EDU Message-ID: <9307061835.AA01219@hickory.iapa> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al ===> topic 1: web front end I've been looking into literate programming in general, web systems in particular. An amazing source of confusion is the fact that there are SO many different web systems, and they all look quite similar from the source code perspective (you are in a *web* of twisty passages, all different). While testing these out, it became easy to forget which version of a file was designed for a particular web. I invision the problem of getting public domain webs and not knowing which web to run. Question: has anyone ever given thought to (or be willing to volunteer to write) a web front-end and set of conventions such that I could enter 'web filename', and 'web' would execute fweb, cweb, nuweb, etc. depending on the contents of 'filename'. Perhaps get the various webs to agree on a standard macro specifying what options to run (ala' shell scripts and '#!/bin/sh'). Perhaps it is not worth the effort... ===> topic 2: texinfo web Is there a web system which generates texinfo files instead of TeX / LaTeX? Since texinfo can be used to create online documentation in addition to printed documentation, it looks like it would be real handy. ===> topic 3 WYSIWYG webs Some folks have mentioned WYSIWYG webs. At first blush it sounds like a great idea. However, when debugging a web file using a source browser I generally like to see the web source, not the generated .c, etc. source, and I like the compiler to complain by giving line numbers in reference to the orignal web file as well. If the file is WYSIWYG, it seems to me that most (all?) compilers and debuggers would choke on the WYSIWYG stuff. Given all that, is there a FrameMaker web out there somewhere? ... just a few stray thoughts by a web neophyte... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Instrument Approach Procedures Automation DOT/FAA/AMI-230 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Bryan D. Oakley ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu KENROB and Associates, Inc. voice: (405) 954-7176 (work) 5909 NW Expwy Suite 209 (405) 366-6248 (home) Oklahoma City, Ok. 73132 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 17:39:05 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307062236.AA11644@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 00:36:18 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Silvio Levy writes: >This discussion itself is a good indication that we need to switch to >a newsgroup. There have been over 30 posts -- it wish I were able to >kill the thread. I apologize for having generated so much traffic, and I would suggest that further articles on this subject be addressed directly to me and be kept off this list, unless there is substantially more discussion contained than just "I am for/against creating a newsgroup". I *would*, however, like to hear from as many people as possible about their opinions. The email I have received so far was predominantly in favour of creating a newsgroup, although a few important contributors to this list were opposed to it. Based on this feedback, I feel encouraged to go ahead and try writing a draft Request for Discussion (RFD), which I will post to this list in a week or so. I am aware that I am by no means the ultimate authority on Literate Programming, but a few knowledgeable people have agreed to work with me "offline", and I hope that with their help I can produce a decent document to turn loose on the net community. Someone else has already posted the rules for a newsgroup creation, and I just would like to add that there are slightly more than 300 subscribers to this list, which means that it shouldn't be too hard to succeed in a vote provided there is sufficient interest within the list itself. I wish you less traffic and happy weaving (and wordmincing, or whatever the WORDWEB users do) Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "Neeracher can and no doubt will perform the usual cheerleader duties." -- ataylor@nmsu.edu in ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 17:42:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 23:39:00 BST From: Manuel Carriba Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, M.Carriba@DCS.SHEFFIELD.AC.UK Message-ID: <9307062239.AA06658@dcs.shef.ac.uk> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, LitProg@SHSU.edu, levy@MATH.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? CC: levy@math.berkeley.edu > > This discussion itself is a good indication that we need to switch to > a newsgroup. There have been over 30 posts -- it wish I were able to > kill the thread. > Why we don't assign someone to collect all the votes, sending them directlty to him/her and not to the list?! And I'll give my vote... Manuel ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 17:52:54 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 23:39:00 BST From: Manuel Carriba Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, M.Carriba@DCS.SHEFFIELD.AC.UK Message-ID: <9307062239.AA06658@dcs.shef.ac.uk> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, LitProg@SHSU.edu, levy@MATH.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? CC: levy@math.berkeley.edu > > This discussion itself is a good indication that we need to switch to > a newsgroup. There have been over 30 posts -- it wish I were able to > kill the thread. > Why we don't assign someone to collect all the votes, sending them directlty to him/her and not to the list?! And I'll give my vote... Manuel ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 21:25:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: 07 Jul 1993 14:19:47 +1200 From: J_Hamer@cs.aukuni.ac.nz (John Hamer) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, J_Hamer@CS.AUKUNI.AC.NZ Subject: Re: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, iapa!ctrbdo@MAILHOST.ECN.UOKNOR.EDU Message-ID: <9307070219.AA04597@cs18.cs.aukuni.ac.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >Bryan D. Oakley writes: >... >===> topic 2: texinfo web > >Is there a web system which generates texinfo files instead of TeX / >LaTeX? Since texinfo can be used to create online documentation in >addition to printed documentation, it looks like it would be real >handy. The Glasgow Literate Programming System generates GNU Emacs .info (and LaTeX) documents from a LaTeX-like input file. You could find out more from Will Partain (partain@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk). -- John Hamer Email: J_Hamer@cs.aukuni.ac.nz -- Department of Computer Science Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x 8758 -- University of Auckland Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 00:17:58 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307051036.AA20036@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: SGML and TeX To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, j_mcarthur@BIX.COM Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 12:36:23 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text [This is a long response, sorry. I tried to cut it down, but I cannot make it less text without loosing clarity.] Jeffrey wrote: > > >SGML is changing the playing field a little from TeX. SGML is a markup > >language whereas TeX is a typesetting language. SGML describes the > >structure of a document (eg. the following word is an identifier) > >rather than its appearance (eg. the following word should appear in > >italic type). > > Just a few comments about SGML. First, there are a lot of misconceptions > about SGML. I know, I have had to learn a tremendous amount in the past > few weeks since I am now working on a massive SGML job. Please, don't take this mail personally -- but it's my impression that you have more to do. Your mail gives IMNSHO a completely wrong presentation of SGML. In addition, > TeX and SGML go together very nicely. I am currently feeding raw > SGML files into TeX and typesetting them. Yes, that can be done for particular document types -- but it's really not the ``canonical'' way. TeX isn't a programming language that's really suited for this type of tasks. Let me get a bit more structured, so that you can critizice me, too ;-): First I'll give an outline what SGML is. Then I'll attack your statement that SGML documents are unreadable, both in principle and with an example. At last I'll do a scetch of the `usual' connection with SGML and TeX. WHAT IS SGML? SGML is an acronym, it stands for Standard Generalized Markup Language. The important word herein to distinguish it from other markup languages is ``Generalized''. We can distinguish four categories of markup: 1. presentational markup The document's structure is shown by laying out the content on the page/screen. This might seem trivial (introducing spaces and lines) and might be more (itemized lists, etc.) This is what I'm doing manually now... 2. procedural markup The text is interspersed with formatting commands, which explain how the document is to be formatted. (plain) TeX and [nt]roff are typical examples of this. 3. generic or descriptive markup The document is tagged to show its structure explicitely. The tags are defined externally. Scribe is the canonical example for this category. From its intent, LaTeX belongs here, too. But one has still the full access to the procedural facilities of TeX. (IMO the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of LaTeX.) 4. generalized markup The document is described on three levels, which build the parts of a complete document. The first level tells how the input will look like. It will describe the character set, what interpretations are associated with characters, how tags are created, etc. I.e., one explains the lexical conventions, how lexems to describe the document are built. The second level defines the potential structure of the document. One explains explicitely which structural elements may occur and which relationships and attributes they have to another (consists-of, is-optional, etc.) I.e., one defines a grammar which explains the document structure. The third level is the document's content, tagged according to the conventions introduced on level 1 and 2. This part is called document instance in SGML terminology. SGML belongs to category 4. In so far as it contains a language to **define** markup languages, it is more than ``yet another markup language.'' That's the reason why it's called a meta-language by some people. That's arguable, 'though I won't subscribe to this view -- we describe full documents after all, and full documents have no `meta'-ness whatsoever. READABILITY OF DOCUMENT INSTANCES Jeffrey presented horrible examples of SGML input. The problem here is that one has to distinguish between two ways of working with SGML documents: the ``wealthy way'' (with appropriate tools) and the ``poor man's way'' (by hand). If the example concerned the former way it was simply wrong; if it concerned the latter, it was plain bad. The wealthy way uses context-sensitive editors, embedded in author systems. The author will (should ;-) never see the tagged text. As somebody already noted, it's like not looking at the output of TANGLE. So the readability of the internal [sic!] document representation -- as presented by Jeffrey -- is not of any concern here. The readability of the document as presented by the editor is the point to ask for. And here you don't see that mess, you'll see a nice presentation of your structure, with outlining possibilities and all kind of things you dream of (querying for the contents of specific elements and similar things). The poor man's way uses a simple editor and types in the markup declaration and the document instance. Then he or she will add shortcuts which makes typing more easily. Tags can be ommitted from the document instance, the SGML system will insert them for your convenience. As a real life example, a document instance taken (almost verbatim, minus the DTD and some ommitted text declaration from a file here: ---------------- TUD/ITI sman 1 convert SGML itiman manual page to nroff man format sman [-esis] file[.sgm] sman provides an easy way for converting manual pages in SGML itiman format to nroff (conversion to TeXinfo is planned). Either SUN and IBM/HP man package format is created automatically. Two different kinds of document structures are supported: one for command man pages that consist of sections like synopsis, description, options, etc., and one for miscellaneous ones which only consist of sections with arbitrary names. For both, the text can contain markups for emphasized text, description and option lists, verbatim mode, and more. A detailed description of the markup can be found in the tutorial ``How to write a SGML itiman Manpage''. [...] sgmls(1), nroff(1) ---------------- To cite Jeffrey: > The much more serious problem with SGML is that it is almost impossible > to edit. Let me give you an idea. I find the example above neither unreadable nor impossible to edit. My idea is obviously different from yours -- the readers of this mail should judge for themselves. (I.e., the created nroff source: ---------------- .st "sman" 1 "TUD/ITI" \*(]W .SH NAME sman \- convert SGML manual page to nroff man format .SH SYNOPSIS .B sman [-esis] \fIfile[.sgm]\fR .br .SH DESCRIPTION \fBsman\fR provides an easy way for converting manual pages in SGML itiman format to nroff (conversion to TeXinfo is planned). Either SUN and IBM/HP man package format is created automatically. .PP Two different kinds of document structures are supported: one for command man pages that consist of sections like synopsis, description, options, etc., and one for miscellaneous ones which only consist of sections with arbitrary names. .PP For both, the text can contain markups for emphasized text, description and option lists, verbatim mode, and more. A detailed description of the markup can be found in the tutorial ``\fIHow to write a SGML itiman Manpage\fR''. .SH OPTIONS .TP .B -esis generate only the intermediate representation as created by the sgmls frontend ---------------- [that's only a partly extraction] is IMHO much more unreadable...) PROCESSING SGML DOCUMENTS OR _THE CONNECTION TO TeX_ > If are willing to write > some macros and play with catcodes you can relatively easilly typeset > SGML documents with TeX without the need for any pre-processor. The pre-processor -- usually called SGML parser -- is exactly the tool which makes SGML so valuable. It delivers a canonical form of the document instance, where all ommitted tags and all shortcuts are expanded. It checks the validity of the markup, i.e., one is sure afterwards that the document is correctly tagged. Therefore it is easy to transform this now into valid TeX markup. To program this validation and this `normalizing' in TeX itself is a nightmare. (So much about the statement of Dominique that companies are more concerned about maintainance, modularity, and the ability to support it by other people, than universities. :-) That it is doable, doesn't mean this work is well invested. (IMO, of course. But I'm programming in TeX for 11 years now, and know its limitations quite well.) If you have enough money and work under UNIX systems -- have a look at the SGML Publisher of Arbortext. (I have no connection to this company except knowing a few people there personally.) It uses an extended version of TeX as the publishing engine to SGML documents. It's a great piece of software for professional document preparation. Especially the table and math support is great (where traditionally SGML systems were weak). Author/Editor -- mentioned from Jeffrey already -- is a nice system. DynaText from Electronic Book Technologies is often mentioned as outstanding, 'though I hadn't the chance to look at it yet. On the freely distributable (poor man's ;-) side: There are some converters available, most notably gf and Format. A large archive of freely distributable material is accessible by anonymous ftp at ftp.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.55.75] directory pub/text/sgml In the subdir documentation/ there's also the c.t.sgml FAQ and the famous SGML bibliography of Robin Cover. Well, in principle -- currently non-European hosts cannot reach Germany over the Internet. And a GB disk of our ftp server did crash this morning -- we're closed until we have installed a new disk and the backup. But regular business should be back at the end of the week. -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 00:21:10 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307051036.AA20036@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: SGML and TeX To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, j_mcarthur@BIX.COM Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 12:36:23 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text [This is a long response, sorry. I tried to cut it down, but I cannot make it less text without loosing clarity.] Jeffrey wrote: > > >SGML is changing the playing field a little from TeX. SGML is a markup > >language whereas TeX is a typesetting language. SGML describes the > >structure of a document (eg. the following word is an identifier) > >rather than its appearance (eg. the following word should appear in > >italic type). > > Just a few comments about SGML. First, there are a lot of misconceptions > about SGML. I know, I have had to learn a tremendous amount in the past > few weeks since I am now working on a massive SGML job. Please, don't take this mail personally -- but it's my impression that you have more to do. Your mail gives IMNSHO a completely wrong presentation of SGML. In addition, > TeX and SGML go together very nicely. I am currently feeding raw > SGML files into TeX and typesetting them. Yes, that can be done for particular document types -- but it's really not the ``canonical'' way. TeX isn't a programming language that's really suited for this type of tasks. Let me get a bit more structured, so that you can critizice me, too ;-): First I'll give an outline what SGML is. Then I'll attack your statement that SGML documents are unreadable, both in principle and with an example. At last I'll do a scetch of the `usual' connection with SGML and TeX. WHAT IS SGML? SGML is an acronym, it stands for Standard Generalized Markup Language. The important word herein to distinguish it from other markup languages is ``Generalized''. We can distinguish four categories of markup: 1. presentational markup The document's structure is shown by laying out the content on the page/screen. This might seem trivial (introducing spaces and lines) and might be more (itemized lists, etc.) This is what I'm doing manually now... 2. procedural markup The text is interspersed with formatting commands, which explain how the document is to be formatted. (plain) TeX and [nt]roff are typical examples of this. 3. generic or descriptive markup The document is tagged to show its structure explicitely. The tags are defined externally. Scribe is the canonical example for this category. From its intent, LaTeX belongs here, too. But one has still the full access to the procedural facilities of TeX. (IMO the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of LaTeX.) 4. generalized markup The document is described on three levels, which build the parts of a complete document. The first level tells how the input will look like. It will describe the character set, what interpretations are associated with characters, how tags are created, etc. I.e., one explains the lexical conventions, how lexems to describe the document are built. The second level defines the potential structure of the document. One explains explicitely which structural elements may occur and which relationships and attributes they have to another (consists-of, is-optional, etc.) I.e., one defines a grammar which explains the document structure. The third level is the document's content, tagged according to the conventions introduced on level 1 and 2. This part is called document instance in SGML terminology. SGML belongs to category 4. In so far as it contains a language to **define** markup languages, it is more than ``yet another markup language.'' That's the reason why it's called a meta-language by some people. That's arguable, 'though I won't subscribe to this view -- we describe full documents after all, and full documents have no `meta'-ness whatsoever. READABILITY OF DOCUMENT INSTANCES Jeffrey presented horrible examples of SGML input. The problem here is that one has to distinguish between two ways of working with SGML documents: the ``wealthy way'' (with appropriate tools) and the ``poor man's way'' (by hand). If the example concerned the former way it was simply wrong; if it concerned the latter, it was plain bad. The wealthy way uses context-sensitive editors, embedded in author systems. The author will (should ;-) never see the tagged text. As somebody already noted, it's like not looking at the output of TANGLE. So the readability of the internal [sic!] document representation -- as presented by Jeffrey -- is not of any concern here. The readability of the document as presented by the editor is the point to ask for. And here you don't see that mess, you'll see a nice presentation of your structure, with outlining possibilities and all kind of things you dream of (querying for the contents of specific elements and similar things). The poor man's way uses a simple editor and types in the markup declaration and the document instance. Then he or she will add shortcuts which makes typing more easily. Tags can be ommitted from the document instance, the SGML system will insert them for your convenience. As a real life example, a document instance taken (almost verbatim, minus the DTD and some ommitted text declaration from a file here: ---------------- TUD/ITI sman 1 convert SGML itiman manual page to nroff man format sman [-esis] file[.sgm] sman provides an easy way for converting manual pages in SGML itiman format to nroff (conversion to TeXinfo is planned). Either SUN and IBM/HP man package format is created automatically. Two different kinds of document structures are supported: one for command man pages that consist of sections like synopsis, description, options, etc., and one for miscellaneous ones which only consist of sections with arbitrary names. For both, the text can contain markups for emphasized text, description and option lists, verbatim mode, and more. A detailed description of the markup can be found in the tutorial ``How to write a SGML itiman Manpage''. [...] sgmls(1), nroff(1) ---------------- To cite Jeffrey: > The much more serious problem with SGML is that it is almost impossible > to edit. Let me give you an idea. I find the example above neither unreadable nor impossible to edit. My idea is obviously different from yours -- the readers of this mail should judge for themselves. (I.e., the created nroff source: ---------------- .st "sman" 1 "TUD/ITI" \*(]W .SH NAME sman \- convert SGML manual page to nroff man format .SH SYNOPSIS .B sman [-esis] \fIfile[.sgm]\fR .br .SH DESCRIPTION \fBsman\fR provides an easy way for converting manual pages in SGML itiman format to nroff (conversion to TeXinfo is planned). Either SUN and IBM/HP man package format is created automatically. .PP Two different kinds of document structures are supported: one for command man pages that consist of sections like synopsis, description, options, etc., and one for miscellaneous ones which only consist of sections with arbitrary names. .PP For both, the text can contain markups for emphasized text, description and option lists, verbatim mode, and more. A detailed description of the markup can be found in the tutorial ``\fIHow to write a SGML itiman Manpage\fR''. .SH OPTIONS .TP .B -esis generate only the intermediate representation as created by the sgmls frontend ---------------- [that's only a partly extraction] is IMHO much more unreadable...) PROCESSING SGML DOCUMENTS OR _THE CONNECTION TO TeX_ > If are willing to write > some macros and play with catcodes you can relatively easilly typeset > SGML documents with TeX without the need for any pre-processor. The pre-processor -- usually called SGML parser -- is exactly the tool which makes SGML so valuable. It delivers a canonical form of the document instance, where all ommitted tags and all shortcuts are expanded. It checks the validity of the markup, i.e., one is sure afterwards that the document is correctly tagged. Therefore it is easy to transform this now into valid TeX markup. To program this validation and this `normalizing' in TeX itself is a nightmare. (So much about the statement of Dominique that companies are more concerned about maintainance, modularity, and the ability to support it by other people, than universities. :-) That it is doable, doesn't mean this work is well invested. (IMO, of course. But I'm programming in TeX for 11 years now, and know its limitations quite well.) If you have enough money and work under UNIX systems -- have a look at the SGML Publisher of Arbortext. (I have no connection to this company except knowing a few people there personally.) It uses an extended version of TeX as the publishing engine to SGML documents. It's a great piece of software for professional document preparation. Especially the table and math support is great (where traditionally SGML systems were weak). Author/Editor -- mentioned from Jeffrey already -- is a nice system. DynaText from Electronic Book Technologies is often mentioned as outstanding, 'though I hadn't the chance to look at it yet. On the freely distributable (poor man's ;-) side: There are some converters available, most notably gf and Format. A large archive of freely distributable material is accessible by anonymous ftp at ftp.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.55.75] directory pub/text/sgml In the subdir documentation/ there's also the c.t.sgml FAQ and the famous SGML bibliography of Robin Cover. Well, in principle -- currently non-European hosts cannot reach Germany over the Internet. And a GB disk of our ftp server did crash this morning -- we're closed until we have installed a new disk and the backup. But regular business should be back at the end of the week. -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 00:26:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307051115.AA19285@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: CWEB for LaTeX? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WAGNER@CSEARN.BITNET Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:15:58 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text You wrote: > > Several days ago I saw an announcement of LaTeX support in CWEB. [...] > I probably forgot the name of the Darmstadt ftp site (my four attempts > failed due to unknown host). Can someone help me to find the correct site? I don't think you forgot it. Due to an organizational problem Germany is cut off from the Internet at the moment. Connectivity should be back at the end of the week (at least, I was told so :-). Then you'll find cweb.sty in ftp.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.55.75] directory pub/programming/literate-programming/c.c++ file cweb-sty-.tar.Z I might switch to .gz (ie, gzip instead of compress) in the next release. -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 00:29:15 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307051117.AA16758@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:17:32 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text I would certainly vote in favor of a newsgroup. -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 02:37:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: dentato@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@MINERVA.ING.UNIROMA1.IT Message-ID: <9307070738.AA15345@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it> Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 09:38:49 +0100 (DFT) Content-Type: text I'm not against the list -> newsgroup conversion as long as the list remains: I have no news access and I would miss this list! By the way, can anyone (privately) explain me how to obtain newsgroup? ___ __ //_/// \ // \//__/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 03:24:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307070824.AA14094@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Date: Wed, 07 Jul 93 18:24:50 +1000 From: kcousins@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@ECHIDNA.RP.CSIRO.AU My vote: create a newsgroup and expand the reader base. As for those who lack USENET access, can a USENET-mail 'gateway' of some sort solve their problem? --Kevin. ________________________________________________________________________ Kevin Cousins | kcousins@rp.csiro.au | Ph: +61 2 868 0425 Fax: +61 2 868 0490 _--_|\ _ _ . _ _ CSIRO / Division of Radiophysics / \ / ` ( ` / /_) / ) Cnr Vimiera & Pembroke Rds \_.--\_* (_, ._) / / \ (_/ Marsfield NSW 2121 v ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 04:00:29 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 02:26:57 -0400 (EDT) From: j_mcarthur@BIX.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, j_mcarthur@BIX.COM Subject: RE: SGML and TeX To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307070226.memo.89488@BIX.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Let me respond to a few points Joachim raised. >... TeX isn't a programming language that's >really suited for this type of tasks. Actually I find TeX to be extreemly well suited for this task. It is much better than any alternative I can find. Let me give you a bit of history about the data I presented. The data was given to us in this fashion. We received over 5000 separate SGML files. Each of them coded this way. Only 10% of the files parsed. This job has been a nightmare. I have had to work for several weeks just trying to get the data to parse and resemble something reasonable. (To give you an idea, as a parting shot the previous contractor replaced all the occurances of "oc" in all the files with the hex character A1 followed by an uppercase C.) Your arguments are fine if you are working with rational people who present you rational data. We are not. We received data that has MANY problems. Including entire sections miss-coded and so on. This is inspite of the problem that the original DTD was very, very sloppy. We have done a lot of work re-writing the DTD so that it has some semblance of order. Let me explain it this way. If you are writing from scratch and using good tools, SGML is a wonderful tool. If you are handed 50 Meg of data which the client claims to be SGML (but only 10% of it parses) and you have to deal with it in whatever way you can, well it is not a pleasant task. >Jeffrey presented horrible examples of SGML input. The problem here >is that one has to distinguish between two ways of working with SGML >documents: the ``wealthy way'' (with appropriate tools) and the >``poor man's way'' (by hand). If the example concerned the former way >it was simply wrong; if it concerned the latter, it was plain bad. What would you do if you were give 5000 files, of which only 500 parsed, and you had to edit the data? For example, Author Editor will NOT read in many of the files because they are coded wrong. You have no choice but to use the ``poor man's way''. You have to look at the coding. You also need a parser which will show you the problems. Context-sensitive editors work great if the data parses. Consider a common problem we run into. We need to create an SGML document from a hard copy source. There is no electronic copy of the data. We have two options: scanning and keying. Scanning is fine, but you still have to add all the tags. Keying can have both done at the same time. Most keying houses can easilly add the SGML tags to a document. However, in both cases you will end up with documents that probably will not parse on the first pass. Also with keying you can run into some structure problems, that is, the tags are wrong in such a way that it conficts with the DTD. In that case, there is no option, but the ``poor man's way''. One of the serious problems with all the editing tools for SGML is that they assume that the data is tagged in a reasonable in accordance with the DTD. This is what you want to end up with, but you may not start with anything resembling that. One of the serious problems with SGML is that the name has almost become a "buzzword". Not quit as bad as "object-oriented" but it may get there. We have another client who is moving in the direction of SGML. The data is not there yet. They don't want to spend the time nor the money to try and validate the 100 or so Meg of data that they have. But the tags are now consistant with SGML style, and it may be possible to write a DTD for what they have. But we know that the data would not parse. There are too many inconsistancies in the data. It would take a lot of time and effort to get all the data to pass a parser. But eventually they will do that, but not this year, nor next year. So what do you do if you receive a Pseudo-SGML document? In our case we MUST deal with it. We try and point out the problems with the document to our clients. We will try and fix them, if we can. So if you live in a world where you only deal with real SGML documents that always parse, you have it easy. I do not. I must deal with documents that don't parse, that are miss-tagged, and have structural errors in them. When I am through with them, they parse. Jeffrey McArthur ATLIS Publishing phone: (301) 210-6655 12001 Indian Creek Court fax: (301) 210-4999 Beltsville, MD 20705 EMAIL: j_mcarthur@bix.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 07:45:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 14:29:49 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9307071229.AA04614@messua> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, iapa!ctrbdo@MAILHOST.ECN.UOKNOR.EDU CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al Sorry I am not too good at quoting, do not know Emacs good enough. Someone wrote: ===> topic 2: texinfo web Is there a web system which generates texinfo files instead of TeX / LaTeX? Since texinfo can be used to create online documentation in addition to printed documentation, it looks like it would be real handy. --- Well, texinfo files are mainly there for user documentation, not program documentation. However, possibility of hopping around cross- references in the source would be a nice feature. It would be, however, even when programming, or doing change files. I believe that for users of Emacs, it would be most intelligent incorporating those features in a WEB style, so that programming and browsing of the source need not be different procedures and files. Any good WEB-styles in Emacs lisp around? David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 09:12:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307071410.AA01562@mucket.vast.unsw.edu.au> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 00:10:38 +1000 From: Steve Avery Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, stevea@VAST.UNSW.EDU.AU Hi all, This is more looking for a volunteer than debating a newsgroup. Would someone like to form a mail gateway for a newsgroup if it is created? This way those that do not have access to a reliable newsfeed (like me), or any newsfeed at all (which is why there are TeX mailing lists isn't it?), would still be able to participate. Anyone interested? Anyone else want to have such a thing? Reply to me - not the list. cheers -steve (stevea@vast.unsw.edu.au) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 09:30:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307071427.AA13326@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 10:32:54 +0600 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de From: tsl1@cornell.edu (Tim Larkin) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tsl1@CORNELL.EDU Subject: Re: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al >Any good WEB-styles in Emacs lisp around? The CWEB 3.0 distribution contains a file, cweb.el, authored by DEK with this discription: ;; This file contains extensions to GNU-Emacs, to wit: ; (1) some WEB-oriented functions that are also of general use ; (2) changes to the GNU-distributed TeX mode ; (3) definitions of simple WEB and CWEB modes Tim Larkin tsl1@cornell.edu 607-255-7008 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 11:09:53 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 11:09:14 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: litprog@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <0096F23F.9D5BD0E0.30973@SHSU.edu> Subject: About a newsgroup......... I've been following along on the newsgroup discussion quietly as I've wanted to see what would transpire. I hope you will humor me by allowing me to interject here. Also, please allow me to first state my personal preferences so that you can see that this is a potentially biased view. Given the option of mail or news, mail wins out every time. LitProg is now just about one year old -- when Cameron Smith first proposed the idea, neither of us (nor anyone else) had any idea that it would be this (a) big, (b) productive, nor (c) intermixed beween acedemia and industrial applications. That's what we wanted, but wants and gets are often different. Starting with the original two of us (and I am still generally clueless about Literate Programming, but learning more as things come in -- which I sincerely thank you for), the list today stands at 329 subscribers. Doing a mail<->news gateway is not trivial, nor is it difficult -- I could easily arrange a gateway along the lines of the dual port used for INFO-TeX->comp.text.tex->ctt-Digest or along the lines of the mirror used INFO-TPU<->vmsnet.tpu or a few other configurations which we already support (indeed, vmsnet.tpu was originally INFO-TPU which spawned into a supported gatewayed newsgroup, so I've gone through this before already). A few things to consider, though. First, getting mail into news is trivial (I can tell you about 7 dozen different ways to do this) but getting news into mail is not so trivial (easily done, but not as trivial). The technology exists and I can arrange a mirror or a dual port if a newsgroup is created. As a footnote -- someone asked about getting newsgroups via mail: as far as I am aware, this can't be done directly unless someone is able to arrange a feed for you somehow; thus, unless someone volunteers to set you up a specific single feed from news to mail or unless you find a newsgroup which is ported or mirrored somehow, you're very probably out of luck. Second, and a larger concern, news is quite simply not as reliable as mail for topics you really want to hear about. Everything we get on INFO-TeX definitely gets to comp.text.tex but not everything on comp.text.tex gets to ctt-Digest due to routing (I assume). If you want to blame our gateway site, go ahead -- but be forewarned that it is probably in the top one or two percent of news sites in terms of connectivity (it directly maps to 17 hosts for inbound and outbound transfers -- one of which is across the Pacific and one of which is across the Atlantic). I have verified this with a few other users elsewhere -- sometimes a few items they see in news aren't in ctt-Digest and there are a few in ctt-Digest which they never see as news entries, so I assume that there is a drop somewhere along the line. Maybe a site really does get *everything* -- if so, please point me to it so I can attempt to get our gateway connected to it. Third, and this is an even larger concern, while there may be adequate votes for a newsgroup, please recognize that with a newsgroup within a legitimate hierarchy (comp, sci, etc.) news sites which carry everything (often, if not always, the case) are going to have to carry the new group -- whether or not readers use it locally. This is a real resource committment as somewhere the space for additional traffic has to be accommodated. True, LitProg hasn't generated all that much traffic in its history, but that is a concern which I feel far too many people overlook when discussing "let's start a newsgroup". Given that space is not free (inexpensive relative to a few years ago and getting more so every day it seems), the economic principle of scarcity comes into play -- meaning quicker expiration dates on other groups. Also, expiration means that long-term archives are harder to come by -- as things now stand, we have a reliable and accurate archive of everything ever posted which is accessible in a variety of manners. Fourth, and a marginal benefit to me and our resources here, a newsgroup means a reduced mail load, so I won't complain about that dimension (at least until we get over 1,000 subscribers). As I've already noted, I'll work with the group whichever way it heads. Finally, one very real benefit of a newsgroup is that it has essentially an unlimited life. Once created, it just never goes away. Mail lists are a function of support by someone somewhere and not as stable (to use the term loosely). It is my intent to continue support for each of our lists so long as there is an interest (and I am successfully getting a cadre of peopel locally to assist in most of the mundane tasks, so it's not as much me anymore as it is SHSU in terms of committment). As a side comment (which I can be flamed over if you like -- preferably privately): IMO, access to news allows more junk to be propagated than just about anything else. Not that news is bad and mail is good, per se -- we definitely see junk along the lines of bounces and (un)subscribe requests -- just that it seems to me that the fact that people can jump in and out of newsgroups so easily (essentialy, on a whim) leads to all kinds of informational distortions (on this, the model I'm looking at is sci.econ -- which is a mess and continues to be one, even though the moderated sci.econ.research was just born in response to this phenomenon). With mail, people are more or less making some form of committment to the group embodied in the list and it is far easier to propagate the mission of the list and oversee it than on news. In ending -- view this as an abstainment insofar as any vote on the topic; I can live with your decision. In fact, it you want a list to discuss a LitProg-related newsgroup, let me know and I'll get it up for you. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 13:04:39 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1993 13:03:51 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: darchen@univ-rennes1.fr CC: litprog@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <0096F24F.A0A7FB60.57@SHSU.edu> Subject: WYSIWYG LP System -- Literate Programming Workshop On Tue, 6 Jul 1993 12:03:56 +0200, J.C Darchen (darchen@univ-rennes1.fr) forwarded: > There is a Wysiwyg LP System for the Mac; it is called the "Literate > Programming Workshop" and is available from > ftp.apple.com in directory /pub/literate.prog > The tool is shareware and the author is Norbert Lindenberg Thanks! I've fetched the file and it is in tex-archive/web/lpw on ftp.shsu.edu for anonymous ftp retrieval, and it is gopherable from Niord in the Literate Programming Library/. As was submitted to me, attached is the README for this tool. As I am about as Mac illiterate as it gets (and rather proud of it!), if someone would tell me what to include for mail purposes, I will get it over to FILESERV (and continue working on the mail interface for ftp.shsu.edu so I no longer have to screw with this moving, giving multiple locations, etc.). The files included are: LPW1.1.sit LPW1.1.sit.hqx README Regards and thanks again, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Literate Programming Workshop 1.1 The LPW1.1.sit StuffIt archive contains: - Literate Programming Workshop - LPW User Manual - ParseErrors, which is both an example project and a tool you need for your work with LPW The Literate Programming Workshop is an environment for the integrated development of program source text and documentation in combined documents. It consists of a WYSIWYG word processor based on a style sheet approach, a mechanism to extract parts of the text in a document, and a project management system that handles multi-document projects. The system is designed to be used in conjunction with MPW: it prepares raw source text for the MPW compilers, accepts MPW error messages, and shows them in the context of the original documents. Automatic indexing and hypertext features allow for easy access to both source text and documentation. Compared to LPW 1.0, LPW 1.1 adds the following features: - repeating tabs (the program editor kind) - Shift Left and Shift Right commands - triple clicking - Close All and Save All commands It also removes a few bugs. LPW 1.1 is shareware - if you use it for more than two weeks, you have to register your copy and pay the registration fee of $50. - Norbert Lindenberg ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 02:23:50 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 17:22:27 +1000 From: Richard Walker Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Richard.Walker@CS.ANU.EDU.AU Message-ID: <199307080722.AA25500@barnard.anu.edu.au> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Status of Modula-2 WEB? Hi everyone! Does anyone know the current state of Modula-2 WEB systems? I am particularly interested to hear if Sewell's system is available somewhere (by ftp). I have tracked down (at Utah) some files (errata and other bits related to Sewell's book) but not the system itself. Richard. PS I vote for the newsgroup too. PPS Has anyone thought more about the on-page mini-indexes of the TeXbook? I am becoming increasingly convinced that they are a `good idea'. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 05:20:38 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 12:19:44 +0200 From: jmu@ccr.jussieu.fr (Johannes MULLER p73413) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, jmu@CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Message-ID: <9307081019.AA71716@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: web-mode and emacs 19.15 Is there anybody who has experience with M.Motls and B.Childs web-mode under emacs-19.15? I have serious problems with the list of sectionnames and everything related (name completion and selection) with my newly installed gnu emacs 19. I tested the web-mode I received on another machine running emacs 18.5? and it works as I expected (ok, as in the manual). Under emacs-19 the list of sectionnames is shortened to a handfull of names like "." or "$" or "e" with (Defined)(Used) like "(3 5 12 67)(34 22 56)" which has no real connection to my program... Shure, I recompiled the .el file. Any help is greatly appreciated Johannes ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 15:11:07 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 08 Jul 93 08:24:41 GMT Message-ID: <364@soliton.demon.co.uk> From: Ian Cargill Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ian@soliton.demon.co.uk To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: About a newsgroup......... In message <0096F23F.9D5BD0E0.30973@SHSU.edu> you write: > I've been following along on the newsgroup discussion quietly as I've > wanted to see what would transpire. I hope you will humor me by allowing > me to interject here. Also, please allow me to first state my personal > preferences so that you can see that this is a potentially biased view. > Given the option of mail or news, mail wins out every time. *SNIP* > Doing a mail<->news gateway is not trivial, nor is it difficult -- I could > easily arrange a gateway along the lines of the dual port used for > INFO-TeX->comp.text.tex->ctt-Digest or along the lines of the mirror used > INFO-TPU<->vmsnet.tpu or a few other configurations which we already > support (indeed, vmsnet.tpu was originally INFO-TPU which spawned into a > supported gatewayed newsgroup, so I've gone through this before already). *SNIP* If we stay as a mail list, there is one possible solution for some people at least. I've just replied to a post offering a utility which takes mail for a particular user (eg litprog@mymachine.domain.xx) and converts it into a newsgroup locally. This obviously depends on your individual setup, but I am going to try it. (Alpha release :-) ) If it is a reasonably simple proceedure, other implementations may also be possible. Of course, this may just be re-inventing the wheel. Anyone know of any existing implementations? ================================================================= Ian Cargill Email: ian@soliton.demon.co.uk 54 Windfield, Leatherhead, Surrey,\ UK KT22 8UQ Phone: +44 (0)372 375529 (Home), +44 (0)71 510 7875 (Work) ----------------------------------------------------------------- C Users Group (UK): For Serious C & C++ Users (Mail for details) Note: Changing shortly to 'Assn. of C and C++ Users', ACCU. ================================================================= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 16:25:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Timothy Murphy Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tim@MATHS.TCD.IE Subject: Re: Status of Modula-2 WEB? To: LitProg@shsu.edu, Richard.Walker@cs.anu.edu.au Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 22:22:50 BST Message-ID: <9307082222.aa05145@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> > Hi everyone! Does anyone know the current state of > Modula-2 WEB systems? I am particularly interested to > hear if Sewell's system is available somewhere (by ftp). > I have tracked down (at Utah) some files (errata and > other bits related to Sewell's book) but not the system > itself. I don't think this is relevant, but OzTeX is written in Modula-2, using a web2modula developed by Andrew Trevorrow (sp?). Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-1-2842366 (home/office) +353-1-7021507 (university) fax: +353-1-2842295 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 19:32:30 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 20:30:59 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, iapa!ctrbdo@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu Subject: Re: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al Message-ID: Bryan Oakley writes: > Some folks have mentioned WYSIWYG webs. At first blush it sounds like > a great idea. However, when debugging a web file using a source > browser I generally like to see the web source, not the generated .c, > etc. source, and I like the compiler to complain by giving line > numbers in reference to the orignal web file as well. If the file is > WYSIWYG, it seems to me that most (all?) compilers and debuggers would > choke on the WYSIWYG stuff. Given all that, is there a FrameMaker web > out there somewhere? A WYSIWYG web (at least the one I know about) creates a plain ASCII source file that will certainly not choke any compiler when it is tangled. There is no reason that a WYSIWYG web system couldn't put #line directives (or the equivalent) into the tangled output, as noweb does if a switch is set on the command line. Unfortunately, few languages support a directive to ``fake out'' the compiler's line counting as C's #line does :-(. Hope this clears up some of the confusion. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 22:12:41 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 23:08:56 -0400 (EDT) From: j_mcarthur@BIX.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, j_mcarthur@BIX.COM Subject: Modula 2 WEB To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307082308.memo.92260@BIX.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Hi everyone! Does anyone know the current state of > Modula-2 WEB systems? I am particularly interested to > hear if Sewell's system is available somewhere (by ftp). > I have tracked down (at Utah) some files (errata and > other bits related to Sewell's book) but not the system > itself. I have a copy of the version that is documented in Sewell's book. Unfortunately there are several problems. First, since Sewell's book a new release of Tangle, Weave, and TeX were released. The version documented in Sewell's book is version 3.0 (see page 272 of Sewell's book). The current release of Tangle is 4.1 and Weave is up to 4.4. The major change that these versions support is the 256 character-set that TeX 3.0 and above support. The second problem is that MANGLE and MEAVE (the Modula-2 versions of Tangle and Weave) make a lot of the same assumptions that Tangle and Weave do about Pascal. This means that it is a pain to use ANY library because the output is designed for a case-insensitive language. Modula-2 is case sensitive. A WEB designed for Modula 2 should also be case sensitive. Otherwise you have to go to a lot of trouble to quote all the references that must be case sensitive. Another problem is that Modula-2 will do simple constant arithmatic. So there is no need for the WEB processor to give its limited support to arithmatic operations. On my "list of things to do" is to update the version of Mangle and Meave. I have an updated copy of Tangle and Weave. I have change files for Tangle 4.1 for Borland Pascal 7.0 and for TopSpeed Pascal. I also have change files for Weave 4.0 for Borland Pascal (and I think for TopSpeed, but I am not sure on this one). Another "thing to do" is to extend Tangle and Weave to match the syntax of Borland Pascal 7.0. The object oriented extensions of BP 7.0 make it a fairly nice tool to work with. Plus it includes a Dos-Extender so you can compile large programs. Jeffrey McArthur ATLIS Publishing phone: (301) 210-6655 12001 Indian Creek Court fax: (301) 210-4999 Beltsville, MD 20705 EMAIL: j_mcarthur@bix.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 05:54:30 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 12:53:42 CET From: Detlef Lannert Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, TSOS@ZE8.RZ.UNI-DUESSELDORF.DE To: Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? In message <199307062236.AA11644@yggdrasil> you wrote: > > I apologize for having generated so much traffic, and I would suggest that > further articles on this subject be addressed directly to me and be kept off > this list, unless there is substantially more discussion contained than just "I > am for/against creating a newsgroup". I *would*, however, like to hear from as > many people as possible about their opinions. As a lurker who just reads this list to see what's going on with LP (I'm not practising it yet) I'd really prefer a newsgroup; it's easier to scan and doesn't clutter my mailbox. -- Ich sehe erst jetzt an der Zieladresse, dass ich wohl auch gleich haette deutsch schreiben koennen; sei's drum. Also: Eine Stimme fuer die Newsgroup. Schoenen Gruss, Detlef ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 08:31:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 15:14:03 MEZ From: Peter Schmitt Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, A8131DAL@AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT Subject: Time for creating a newsgroup ? To: litprog@shsu.edu I am only following this list with casual interest, since - at least at the moment - I do no programming, and therefore do not need a WEB system. Nevertheless I want to throw in an argument *pro* mailing list and *contra* a newsgroup: As far as I remember traffic on this list never was uniformly --- there always were sharp peaks when some topic was discussed followed by quiet periods with little or no messages. In my opinion this fact favors a mailing list over a newsgroup: - mail appears automatically in the mailbox and thus alerts me that some discussion is going on, while - a newsgroup has to be selected actively. And if - for some period - there is no discussion going on, the newsgroup will not be checked regularly, thus discussion will slow down, and - maybe - some thread will even die out prematurely. (Notice that, without this discussion on the merits of a newsgroup, there would be no messages on this list just now! I think that newsgroups are best suited for big and uniform traffic.) Furthermore, the fact (already discussed) that mailing lists reach a larger audience is a convincing argument *for* the list. Peter Peter Schmitt a8131dal@awiuni11.edvz.univie.ac.at schmitt@awirap.bitnet ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Institute of Mathematics Strudlhofgasse 4 University of Vienna A-1090 Wien Austria ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 13:37:24 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 13:39:44 CDT From: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu (Stephen A. Fulling) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, fulling@SARASTRO.MATH.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9307131839.AA01756@sarastro.math.tamu.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? CC: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu I agree with the opinions of Peter Schmitt "*pro* mailing list and *contra* a newsgroup". I will try to follow the discussion into Usenet if that's where it goes, but I will be more comfortable if things stay as they are. I think there are sound rational arguments for the newsgroup, which is why I didn't speak up as long as it seemed (incorrectly, it now appears) that the newsgroup proponents were in the overwhelming majority. (If the network is not being observed by sociology/psychology graduate students, it should be.) S. A. Fulling ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 15:15:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 16:12:16 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <9307132012.AA26449@flaubert.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Time for creating a newsgroup ? I'm in favor of a mailing list. S/N degrades too much in a newsgroup. If I believed we could sell literate programming to a wide audience, I would be in favor of a newsgroup, but I don't think the tools or techniques (especially not the techniques) have reached that stage yet, so I prefer to stay in a ghetto if possible. Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 03:58:26 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: stephan@stack.urc.tue.nl (Stephan Eggermont) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, stephan@STACK.URC.TUE.NL Message-ID: <9307140857.AA29542@blade.stack.urc.tue.nl> Subject: S/N of newsgroups To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 10:57:31 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm in favor of a mailing list. S/N degrades too much in a newsgroup. I wonder how many people claiming S/N problems use inadequate newsreaders/posters. For me, the S/N ratio of mailing lists is much lower than that of newsgroups, because they aren't threaded. In a newsgroup, I routinely kill up to 90% of all threads in a very short time. Stephan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 11:15:41 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: MCCOLLUM DAVID SCOTT Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mccollum@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Message-ID: <199307141614.AA04858@spot.Colorado.EDU> Subject: Re: Starting a newsgroup... To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 10:14:25 -0600 (MDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I currently only follow this ``mail list'', I also agree with others that I prefer to keep things as they are now. Dave McCollum mccollum@spot.colorado.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 19:12:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 19:08:59 -0500 (CDT) From: GBAILEY@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, GBAILEY@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU To: litprog@shsu.edu CC: GBAILEY@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <930714190859.20294312@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU> Subject: Tools/Techniques needed before wide acceptance of LP? >I would be in favor of a newsgroup, but I don't think the tools or techniques >(especially not the techniques) have reached that stage yet, so I prefer >to stay in a ghetto if possible. What tools or techniques do you think we still need before LP is 'ready for the masses'? Guy Bailey gbailey@cs.tamu.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 20:59:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307150156.AA08660@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, GBAILEY@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed before wide acceptance of LP? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 21:55:53 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > What tools or techniques do you think we still need before LP is 'ready for > the masses'? We have an incredible proliferation of different representations (``systems'') for literate programs and suites of tools for manipulating them. No tool works with multiple representations. To my knowledge, only one representation is designed for easy manipulation by tools. That one has attracted a few tool writers, but none of the more interesting or difficult tools (prettyprinters, hypertext browsers, multi-mode editors) work with it. Many representations support at most a handful of programming languages (a serious flaw) and typesetters (a minor flaw). Many tools are overly complex and perpetuate the problems identified by Ramsey and Marceau (SPE, July 1991). In short, the tools are immature. Progress might be made if we all tried getting behind a single representation and went to work making it support *any* language, *any* typesetter (including WYSIWYG), and if we created some simple but interesting tools, with all the amenities people have grown accustomed to, like automated indexing, prettyprinting, &c. Then again, it might not. As to techniques, I claim there aren't any. We have Knuth's admonishment to write for human readers, and mine to use lots of peer review, and I think that about exhausts the contenders. Our only book on the subject spends hundreds of pages mostly guiding the reader around the idiosyncracies of the tools. We have exactly two published literate programs of any size, programs which might never have been published if not for the immense prestige their author earned in other endeavors. Should a literate program resemble a novel, essay, encyclopedia, textbook, or automobile-repair manual? No one knows. Probably none of these---after all, it is a new literary form. But do we create and publish literate programs so that the community can study them, learn from them, and perhaps build an understanding of what a literate program is and how to write one? No! No, we write tools, because that's the only thing we're smart enough to understand. I count myself doubly guilty, since I have written twice as many tool sets as most other contenders. Well, I apologize for the polemic. Put it down to annoyance. I just finished an article on yet another literate-programming tool, and the article contained neither a clear description of the tool nor any reference to the criteria so clearly set forth by Thimbleby. I wish I knew what the editors and referees were thinking of. Norman Ramsey ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 01:27:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 07:23:18 GMT Message-ID: <402@soliton.demon.co.uk> From: Ian Cargill Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ian@soliton.demon.co.uk To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed before wide acceptance of LP? In message <9307150156.AA08660@mailee.bellcore.com> you write: *SNIP* > Well, I apologize for the polemic. Put it down to annoyance. I just ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ DON'T !! I think this group needs more discussion of this type if we are to advance the 'cause' of LP. Since I joined the list, posts have been mostly about the mechanics of specific implementations. I don't say that that is a bad thing, just that it must not be the ONLY thread. I'm a bare beginner, so I not ready to contribute much yet, but think we would all benefit from more discussion of the points that Norman has raised. > finished an article on yet another literate-programming tool, and the ^^^^^^^^ Any good? Reference? > > Norman Ramsey > ================================================================= Ian Cargill Email: ian@soliton.demon.co.uk 54 Windfield, Leatherhead, Surrey,\ UK KT22 8UQ Phone: +44 (0)372 375529 (Home), +44 (0)71 510 7875 (Work) ----------------------------------------------------------------- C Users Group (UK): For Serious C & C++ Users (Mail for details) Note: Changing shortly to 'Assn. of C and C++ Users', ACCU. ================================================================= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 02:38:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307150737.AA06783@petrus.grenoble.hp.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Starting a newsgroup... Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 09:37:24 +0200 From: Dominique Dumont / GND Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, domi@PETRUS.GRENOBLE.HP.COM In message <199307141614.AA04858@spot.Colorado.EDU> you write: > Although I currently only follow this ``mail list'', I also agree with others > that I prefer to keep things as they are now. > > Dave McCollum > mccollum@spot.colorado.edu > > I agree. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Dominique Dumont ^^^^^^ Email: Dominique_Dumont@grenoble.hp.com / O O \ HP Desk: Dominique DUMONT / HP6300/UM ( \____/ ) Address : HEWLETT PACKARD, 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 FRANCE \______/ Tel,Telnet: (33) 76 62 57 24 - 7 779 5724 Telex,Fax: 980 124 - (33) 76 62 53 20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 06:56:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu To: LitProg@SHSU.edu CC: David Thompson , ae1181t@stnfor2.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Subject: Glasgow literate programming system Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 12:55:04 +0100 From: Will Partain Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, partain@DCS.GLA.AC.UK A few people have asked about our system since it was mentioned in passing. [Sent to the list because I may not have saved all msgs.] It's around, it works, some people use it, it is freely available. It is heavily unadvertised because I'm not working on it (it was done in 1990), and I can't promise a lot of attention to it. (I work on the Glasgow Haskell compiler in Real Life.) vvvv Here's the idea. You write your code in a LaTeX-*like* notation, ^^^^ with the code bits between \begin{code} and \end{code}. You can then process your stuff into a .dvi file (for typesetting) or into an Info file (simple hypertext viewing). It doesn't care what programming language you are using, but it has "hooks" that let you run indexing and/or typesetting filters over each of the code fragments. As it comes, the system "knows" about Haskell, C, Perl, and Fortran (but not very much). There's more, but that's the basic idea. Implementation: the beast is more-or-less a Perl Script From Hell. The language-specific parts are just little Perl fragments. Anyone who knows perl should be able to make it do stuff. It shouldn't be too bad to make it run on any Unix box that has perl on it. Documentation: rambly, with lots of air-the-dirty-laundy sections. Don't be put off. I'd start with the "tutorial" section (Info node "notation-tut"). Development: If anyone is taken with the ideas and wants to work on it some more, please get in touch. My remaining ambition is to literatify the Haskell compiler better, then plug the whole thing into the Worldwide Web :-) You can get the following by anonymous FTP from ftp.dcs.glasgow.ac.uk, in pub/haskell/glasgow: lit2x-0.16-src.tar.{Z,gz} # full business lit2x-0.16-literate.info.Z # just the documentation lit2x-0.16-literate.dvi.Z # ditto I hope this is useful. Will Partain ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 06:59:59 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 13:40:28 MDT From: Zdenek Wagner Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WAGNER%CSEARN.BITNET@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: Starting a newsgroup... To: Literate Progaramming list , domi@PETRUS.GRENOBLE.HP.COM I was silent because I thought that I belong to the minority of users who are unable to receive newsgroups. I would also prefer the mail list. , ,~~~/ /` / /| /~~~ / / |_/ /__/ ' | / / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /\ | /| / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~~ / , / / /~~~ / / /~~~ / \ |/ |/ / /_/ / / / /~~~ / ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ' ' ~~~ ' ` ' ' ~~~ ~~/ ' ' ~~~ ' Zdenek Wagner______/ Some gateway between me and you may garble backslash. It will appear on your screen as ã but now it seems repaired. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 09:47:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 10:50:14 EDT From: pollice@centerline.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, pollice@CENTERLINE.COM Message-ID: <9307151450.AA00580@divine.centerline.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: unsubscribe SIGNOFF LitProg ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 10:30:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: dentato@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@MINERVA.ING.UNIROMA1.IT Message-ID: <9307151529.AA16425@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it> Subject: Tools/Techniques needed by LP To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 17:29:12 +0100 (DFT) Content-Type: text I agree that this list need more discussions on the concepts of LP. Like everyone else here, I presume, I was attracted by the idea of LP: what a sense of freedom! The problem, I thought, are the tools: they are too complex. So I started to write my own, simpler, literate tool. During the development I introduced more and more commands, just because could be useful have such commands, so my tool became just a bad copy of the others. Of course I threw away the tool. But it wasn't wasted time: that experience turned to be useful because I understood more about the literate style. Of course I'm just a novice in the LP but I think that this new way of thinking is one of the best things appened to programmers since the advent of full screen editors (:-)). I think, as before, that the problem is in the tools we use, but just because they are not powerful enough. For example we have to navigate a graph (our webfile) using a linear tool (an editor), it would be much better to have an hypertext tools. The formatting commands and the special commands we use "obscure" the text and the code we are writing, so a WYSIWYG hypertext tool should be even better! Of course we would to be platform independent (IMO one of the biggest advantages of TeX is its availability for any platforms), and typeset beautiful math and so on. But here is a problem: more powerful the tools, more powerful the machines we have to use (I simply can't stand to wait too much for, say, the generation of the indices) and I work on various machines that range from IBM RS6000 to MS-DOS ( :-( ). For now I have adopted the nuweb system from Preston Briggs, it's clear, fast, language independent, and gives me all I need to be a literate. IMO is the easiest and most natural tool I've used. The problem is: why using LP? Personally I have choosed LP first of all for helping myself during development, and second for the others that, finally, can read my code and understand what I intedend to do. During the development I absolutely don't want to be bothered with typesetting problems (after all maybe none will read my code!) but I still want indexes and cross referencing of macros etc, etc. so I'm currently writing a tool that will do this kind of works for the nuweb system. In conclusion I'm very interested in what do you think are the "intimate essence" of literate programming (;-)), both from the experienced literate programmers, both the newcomers. Ok, I hope I wasn't too boring. Bye! ___ __ //_/// \ e-mail: mc9275@mclink.it // \//__/ dentato@cadgroup.ing.uniroma1.it Remo Dentato ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 11:47:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 18:42:34 +0200 From: se_haux@rcvie.co.at (Michael Haux) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, se_haux@RCVIE.CO.AT Message-ID: <9307151642.AA26125@rcsun1.rcvie.co.at> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques I have for some time passively followed this discussion list. Literate programming seems to have interesting qualities, leading to better documented and readable code. However, I agree with the recent postings concerning the focus of the list (see Norman Ramsey). The discussion of available tools should also be in the list, but for litprog to be practicable, I think there has to be more. I would appreciate more discussion on themes like - How does literate programming integrate in a SW development process? With software engineering methods? - Methods and techniques for literate programming. - Litprog feasibility for larger, "real-world" projects. Just some ideas from a litprog novice, Michael BTW. My vote again: A newsgroup is in my opinion superior to a mailing list (reading it with xvnews in OpenWindows). Michael Haux, Internet: Michael.Haux@rcvie.co.at =================================================================================== V Software Engineering Department +-----------------------+ Alcatel Austria Forschungszentrum GmbH | A L C A T E L | Ruthnergasse 1-7, A-1210 Vienna, Austria/EUROPE +-----------------------+ Voice: +43 1 39 16 21 362 Fax: +43 1 39 14 52 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 15:33:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 15:32:00 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: stevef@ttsi.tandem.com CC: info-tex@SHSU.edu, info-tpu@SHSU.edu, litprog@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <0096F8AD.A5F18D20.27689@SHSU.edu> Subject: RE: Repeat messages On Thu, 15 Jul 93 14:41:39 CDT, stevef@ttsi.tandem.com (Steve Farmer) posted: > I have been receiving a number of messages from the mailing list that are > duplicates of messages received about a week ago. Are others experiencing > this? Can you tell me the cause? To everyone addressed: I managed to hose a few entries which were enqueued (and I had no record of who had and had not received the posts in question). What I did was to re-enqueue every message which I messed up; hence, they were re-broadcast to everyone on the affected lists on a theory of better safe than sorry. My apologies for any and all inconvenience this may have caused. Regards, George %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% George D. Greenwade, Ph.D. Bitnet: BED_GDG@SHSU Department of Economics and Business Analysis THEnet: SHSU::BED_GDG College of Business Administration Voice: (409) 294-1266 P. O. Box 2118 FAX: (409) 294-3612 Sam Houston State University Internet: bed_gdg@SHSU.edu Huntsville, TX 77341 bed_gdg%SHSU.decnet@relay.the.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 20:34:46 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307160132.AA19555@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ian@soliton.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed before wide acceptance of LP? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 21:32:00 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > > finished an article on yet another literate-programming tool, and the > ^^^^^^^^ > Any good? Reference? No. Garbage. Reference withheld to protect the guilty. Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 20:40:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307160140.AA21850@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed by LP Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 11:40:48 +1000 From: kcousins@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@ECHIDNA.RP.CSIRO.AU Fellow Literate People, Recently, Remo Dentato gave an excellent summary of his experience with Literate Programming and opinions. Some background: I work in very much an engineering environment surrounded by DEC & SUN workstations, PCs and MACs. Much of our software development is for PCs to act as controllers for various bits of lab equipment or devices we have built. The sorts of code that is produced here tends to be extremely cryptic little device drivers (i.e. a couple of hundred lines of source C code) for DOS and WINDOWS :-( It is often difficult to explain all of the intricacies of a given piece of code even to other members of ones own project team. Witness me trying to illustrate code that writes a particular byte to some port in order to toggle specific bits on some home brew board. The illustration is rife with interruptions: Why that bit pattern? Why that port? Why perform that operation on this data? It seems that prolific /* commenting */ is not adequate Project management started to come down on us poor code writers demanding better software specification from the programmers! :-o and pleading for better documentation of any code that gets written. (Why programmers are ever writing specifications I'll never understand---in MIS departments, the specification is handed to the programmer who is told "Go away and code something that does this!" True or false?) It was at this point that Literate Programming came into my life :-) Unfortunately, given the depth of my search for information on the topic, it was not at all obvious how to write my short cryptic routines in such a way as to make them Literate. I have FWEB, am writing in C, use Emacs 18.57 with a web-mode, do not know very much about TeX (but have been through _The_TeX_Book_ once already and discovered there is not much that I have to know to get by on if I don't want anything too fancy), and am following this mailing list with avid interest. (Once again, I wouldn't mind at all if it became a news group: the more people that can read about our experiences, I feel, the faster this technique might mature and turn into something even more wonderful that some people already believe it to be! Seems to me thought that it doesn't matter whether my mail box is full or my news reader overflows---same problem, different windows!) I have tried WinWordWEB, a nice little tool for those interested in WYSIWYG LP. There is no real provision there for hypertext-like coding, however. I feel that implementing a hypertext, WYSIWYG LP program using something like HTML could get very cumbersome unless appropriate tools are available to handle the messy repetitive details of the hypertext links. Certainly the idea of a hypertext coding environment has merit: the reason for this post is to broach the subject of Microsoft's Browse Utility which comes as part of their top end compiler packages. We recently purchased MS C/C++ 7.0. From within their Programmer's WorkBench editor environment , it is possible to generate a 'browse database' containing cross references for any and all definitions and references to source files, data types, indentifiers, etc. present in your code. Relationships between source files and identifier references can be displayed, and almost everything is point and click: see a variable name, want to know where it is defined/referenced? double click on the name, up comes a dialog OR up comes an editor window scrolled to precisely the right point in the file. Which function(s) call(s) this library routine? Point and click! The ability to have a global view of the code like this is extremely handy. It does absolutely nothing for improving documentation, but when writing code and in particular debugging it, this browse feature is most beneficial. Its a pity that it is solely a MS product, that it must be run on a PC under specific circumstances, but it certainly seems to be able to handle mixed languages (We tried with C and Fortran). I'd like to see this sort of functionality in an X client. The PC stuff from MS gives you this psuedo-hypertext-like stuff through a hierarchy of dialog boxes. Perhaps its not true hypertext , but it sure beats scrolling through hundreds (or thousands) of lines of code looking for what you want! ________________________________________________________________________ Kevin Cousins | kcousins@rp.csiro.au | Ph: +61 2 868 0425 Fax: +61 2 868 0490 _--_|\ _ _ . _ _ CSIRO / Division of Radiophysics / \ / ` ( ` / /_) / ) Cnr Vimiera & Pembroke Rds \_.--\_* (_, ._) / / \ (_/ Marsfield NSW 2121 v ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 21:47:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: shell@mailhost.cs.pdx.edu (Edith M Brown) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, shell@MAILHOST.CS.PDX.EDU Message-ID: <9307160245.AA27082@rigel.cs.pdx.edu> Subject: unsubscribe To: LitProg@shsu.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 19:45:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SIGNOFF LitProg STOP -- Almost reliably yours, shell(the BOOKshellF CAT of the Computer Action Team) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Taken from the Gummy Bears: Black Knight:"What kind of fool do you take me for?" Troll: "Duuuhhh, I don't know. How many kinds are there?" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 03:00:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 09:50:56 MDT From: Zdenek Wagner Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WAGNER%CSEARN.BITNET@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed by LP To: Literate Progaramming list , dentato@MINERVA.ING.UNIROMA1.IT I will write a very short message what LP brought me. I am not a novice but I do not consider myself an expert either. I had my old programs written about half year ago in CWEB. Each of these 4 programs had about 20 pages of listing. Of course I have forgotten how these progams work inside. Now I had to change these programs in order to alter their functionality. When I counted the changed section, it was about 70% of the program. I managed to do such drastical changes of 4 programs within 3 hours and all programs worked fine after the first compilation without any debugging. I doubt whether I would be able to do the same without LP. , ,~~~/ /` / /| /~~~ / / |_/ /__/ ' | / / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /\ | /| / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~~ / , / / /~~~ / / /~~~ / \ |/ |/ / /_/ / / / /~~~ / ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ' ' ~~~ ' ` ' ' ~~~ ~~/ ' ' ~~~ ' Zdenek Wagner______/ Some gateway between me and you may garble backslash. It will appear on your screen as ã but now it seems repaired. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 07:05:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 14:04 +0000 (GMT) From: "Eric W. van Ammers, LUW, tel: (+31)8370-83356" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed by LP To: LITPROG@shsu.edu Message-ID: <01H0M2NH1TTC8ZGWR2@RCL.WAU.NL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Remo Dentato writes: == In conclusion I'm very interested in what do you think are the =="intimate essence" of literate programming (;-)), both from the ==experienced literate programmers, both the newcomers. I have asked this question several time to the LITPROG netters before. For myself I am getting more and more convinced that the essential quality of litearte programming is to associate a given design step exactly with its consequences in terms of the steps (code) of an algoritm, NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS. In other words, LP makes explicite which code lines are responsible for which design decisions ============================================================================ Eric W. van Ammers Department of Computer Science Wageningen Agricultural University Dreijenplein 2 E-mail: ammers@rcl.wau.nl 6703 HB Wageningen voice: +31 (0)8370 83356/84154 The Netherlands fax: +31 (0)8370 84731 ============================================================================ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 08:17:09 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 15:03:08 +0200 From: ddw2@sunbim.be (Dominique de Waleffe) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ddw2@SUNBIM.BE Message-ID: <9307161303.AA24013@amadeus.sunbim.be> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Limited Emacs support for nuweb: nuweb.el I was getting tired of always switching from Latex-mode to lisp mode for this tool I'm writing in Emacs lisp so I decided to make small additions to the AucTeX, Latex mode I'm using to support editing LitProg files. a) - .w file are put in nuweb mode, - Web is the default command for those buffers instead of LateX, and that calls nuweb, then latex, (doesnot know how to get back to .w file in case of latex errors (C-c` takes you to the .tex file). b) - C-c M-c when (point) is in a scrap body, puts the scrap body in a new buffer in a source mode indicated by a buffer local variable nuweb-source-mode. - In that source buffer, C-c C-c validates the text and installs that as the new version of the scrap body. C-c M-c kills the buffer. The original buffer in nuweb mode is put in read-only mode until one of those two commands is used. There are some missing features, bugs, etc but I think this might be helpful for a number of people. Comments, suggestion, bug reports welcome. The requirement of AucTeX (used in a) could easily be removed from the source. Dominique ;;;;;-------nuweb.el-------------- ;;;;; ;;; Simple support for nuweb editing in Emacs ;;; Works on top of AucTeX ;;; ;;; $Id: nuweb.el,v 1.6 1993/07/16 12:44:05 ddw2 Exp $ ;;; ;;; Author: Dominique de Waleffe (ddw@sunbim.be) ;;; ;;; Copyright: Do anything with it, but dont forget to credit me ;;; ;;; Bug reports , suggestions are welcome. I'll see if I can do anything in ;;; my copious spare time ;;; ;;; This obviously should have been written using nuweb... instead of being hacked in ;;; a few minutes. ;;; ;;; To install: ;;; (push auto-mode-alist '( "\\.w" . nuweb-mode)) ;;; (require 'nuweb) ;;; (require 'tex-site) ; I'm not sure that this is enough ;;; Extend the list of commands (setq TeX-command-list (cons (list "Web" "nuweb %s ; latex '\\nonstopmode\\input{%t}'" 'TeX-LaTeX-hook nil t) TeX-command-list)) ;;; allow .w as extension (setq TeX-file-extensions '("tex" "sty" "w")) ;;; ;;; Nuweb-Source-Mode can be set locally in each buffer ;;; \C-c\M-c will edit the current scrap body (if within one) ;;; into a buffer named *Source* put in the correct source mode ;;; allows to get correct indentations easily ;;; Of course what happens with further @ sequence is at best undefined ;;; In the *Source* buffer, all the commands of the mode are available ;;; plus ;;; \C-c\c-c to install the whole buffer contents as the new scrap body ;;; \C-c\M-c to kill the edited scrap buffer and go back to the original ;;; Before any of those two commands are used, the original nuweb buffer is put ;;; in read-only mode. The saving of the positions etc is rudimentary. ;;; Further strorage in global variables as I've done allows only to edit one ;;; scrap at a time. (defun nuweb-mode () "Major mode to edit nuweb source files" (interactive) (latex-mode) (setq mode-name "nuweb") (make-variable-buffer-local 'nuweb-source-mode) (local-set-key "\C-c\M-c" 'edit-this-scrap) (setq TeX-default-extension "w") (setq TeX-command-default "Web")) (setq-default nuweb-source-mode 'emacs-lisp-mode) ; only one of those in effect.... (defvar *last-scrap-pos* nil) (defvar *last-scrap-begin* nil) (defvar *last-scrap-end* nil) (defun edit-this-scrap () (interactive) (cond((or (null *last-scrap-pos*) (y-or-n-p "You did not finish editing the previous scrap. Continue ")) (setq *last-scrap-pos* (point-marker)) (let* ((begin (and (search-backward "@{" nil t) (point))) (end (and (search-forward "@}" nil t) (>= (point) (marker-position *last-scrap-pos*)) (point))) (text "") (mode nuweb-source-mode)) (cond ( (and begin end) (setq *last-scrap-begin* begin) (setq *last-scrap-end* end) (setq text (buffer-substring begin end)) (setq buffer-read-only t) (switch-to-buffer-other-window "*Source*") (erase-buffer) (insert text) (goto-char (point-min)) (funcall mode) (local-set-key "\C-c\C-c" 'restore-this-scrap) (local-set-key "\C-c\M-c" 'kill-this-scrap) (message "C-c C-c to use source, C-c M-c to abort")) (t (error "Could not identify scrap"))))) (t (message "Use C-x b and select buffer *Source* to finish")))) (defun restore-this-scrap() (interactive) (back-to-pos) (delete-region *last-scrap-begin* *last-scrap-end*) (insert-buffer "*Source*") (setq *last-scrap-pos* nil)) (defun kill-this-scrap() (interactive) (back-to-pos) (setq *last-scrap-pos* nil)) (defun back-to-pos() (switch-to-buffer (marker-buffer *last-scrap-pos*)) (setq buffer-read-only nil) (delete-other-windows) (goto-char (marker-position *last-scrap-pos*)) (recenter)) (provide 'nuweb) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:05:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307161403.AA23246@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 10:09:45 +0600 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it From: tsl1@cornell.edu (Tim Larkin) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tsl1@CORNELL.EDU Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed by LP > In conclusion I'm very interested in what do you think are the >"intimate essence" of literate programming (;-)), both from the >experienced literate programmers, both the newcomers. I believe that WEB and CWEB share one critical characteristic which are missing from some other LP systems: the ability to create an exposition in the web which is organized *independently* of the requirements of the compiler. Of course I refer to the infamous modules, which permit me to describe part of function A, then part of function B, then some more of A, followed by some of C, and so forth. Modules free the programmer from having the development of the explanation restricted by linear processing of the compiler. If one cannot break the tyranny of the compiler, one might as well just write comments and make do with a pretty printer. I think this characteristic is close to the "essence" of LP, since it allows explanations to follow literate patterns directed toward human readers. I consider it to be more important than tables of contents, indices, or hypertext links. Tim Larkin tsl1@cornell.edu 607-255-7008 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 11:26:10 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: cdantoni@abacus.bates.edu (Chuck D'Antonio) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cdantoni@ABACUS.BATES.EDU Message-ID: <9307161623.AA06413@abacus.bates.edu> Subject: Re: Starting a newsgroup... To: LitProg@shsu.edu, domi@petrus.grenoble.hp.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 12:23:45 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent post about a potential newsgroup: > In message <199307141614.AA04858@spot.Colorado.EDU> you write: > > Although I currently only follow this ``mail list'', I also agree with others > > that I prefer to keep things as they are now. > > > > Dave McCollum > > mccollum@spot.colorado.edu > > > > > > I agree. It seems that too many posts are taking on this shape. I realize that it is important to have some idea about whether or not the readers of this list are interested in a newsgroup, but it seem trivial that the discussion is lasting so long. What is the real problem with having different sources for information? Everyone is most concerned with having both the group and the list connected, but for those who are interested in a newsgroup to maintain a subscription to the mail list wouldn't keep them from reading the news. Maybe an alt group in tandem with an active mailing list would give everyone a better feel for which is more appropriate. Or both could develop their own charracter and the alt group could become a comp group with the list still surviving. Hopefully adding something to the debate, Chuck -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- WRBC--91.5 FM -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Chuck D'Antonio -- Foz on IRC <> "Sleep is for lightweights" internet: cdantoni@abacus.bates.edu <> -- Henry Rollins -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Apple II Forever -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 11:40:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 12:36:44 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9307161636.AA19335@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: tsl1@cornell.edu.ae.ge.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed by LP Tim> I believe that WEB and CWEB share one critical characteristic which are Tim> missing from some other LP systems: the ability to create an exposition in Tim> the web which is organized *independently* of the requirements of the Tim> compiler. Of course I refer to the infamous modules, which permit me to ..... Tim> of the compiler. If one cannot break the tyranny of the compiler, one might Tim> as well just write comments and make do with a pretty printer. I think this I agree that the modules/scraps are very important, but I think that almost all of the LP tools I tried had it! Nuweb, noweb, funnelweb, CLiP, WinWordWeb. Without that ability: ``to break the tyranny of the compiler'', they would be quite useless as some do not even pretty-print the code! With the module concept they help to implement the LP paradigm: make it read/look like a book. Osman Osman F. Buyukisik | GE Aricraft Engines | ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 12:31:39 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 19:30:56 CDT From: ctrbdo@oak.iapa.uucp (bryan d oakley) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ctrbdo@OAK.IAPA.UUCP Message-ID: <9307160030.AA24607@oak.iapa> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al >>Lee Wittenburg writes most eloquently: >> Bryan Oakley writes: > Some folks have mentioned WYSIWYG webs. At first blush it sounds like > a great idea. However, when debugging a web file using a source > browser I generally like to see the web source, not the generated .c, > etc. source, and I like the compiler to complain by giving line > numbers in reference to the orignal web file as well. If the file is > WYSIWYG, it seems to me that most (all?) compilers and debuggers would > choke on the WYSIWYG stuff. Given all that, is there a FrameMaker web > out there somewhere? >> A WYSIWYG web (at least the one I know about) creates a plain ASCII source >> file that will certainly not choke any compiler when it is tangled. >> There is no reason that a WYSIWYG web system couldn't put #line >> directives (or the equivalent) into the tangled output, as noweb does >> if a switch is set on the command line. Unfortunately, few languages >> support a directive to ``fake out'' the compiler's line counting as >> C's #line does :-(. >> Hope this clears up some of the confusion. Actually, No. I guess I didn't make myself clear. I realize that a WYSIWYG web creates plain ascii files; that much is obvious. However, when it creates the code and inserts the #line declarations, I'm concerned that they will be pretty much useless. If I run a source debugger I would prefer to see the ORIGINAL SOURCE (ie: the WYSIWYG web file), _not_ the tangled code, much like I prefer to see the source code instead of compiled machine or assembly code in traditional software development (ie: I view a tangled source module to be at the same level of abstraction as the ultimate compiled code -- the language file, .c, .f, whatever, is purely a means to an end. However, source debuggers make the assumption that the source is in ASCII, not Word(im)Perfect, Word, Frame, or some other format so it must show the tangled source code. Well, that has no relationship on the real 'source' code, which causes me grief. I see web systems as truely an improvement when the tangled code is merely a byproduct, and there are sufficient tools to allow one to work with the original source in all phases of development. Why should I code in one language (a web system), then debug in another (a traditional language)? Admittedly, web systems provide great documentation, but for the work I do, content (and useability) is much more important that format. I dare say that I can write equally readable code with just my normal commenting. >> -- Lee --bryan ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 15:58:36 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 15:55:50 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cdantoni@ABACUS.BATES.EDU Message-ID: <0096F97A.24E03C40.32679@SHSU.edu> Subject: Re: Starting a newsgroup... On Fri, 16 Jul 1993 12:23:45 -0400 (EDT), cdantoni@abacus.bates.edu (Chuck D'Antonio) posted: > It seems that too many posts are taking on this shape. I realize that it > is important to have some idea about whether or not the readers of this > list are interested in a newsgroup, but it seem trivial that the discussion > is lasting so long. What is the real problem with having different sources > for information? Everyone is most concerned with having both the group and > the list connected, but for those who are interested in a newsgroup to > maintain a subscription to the mail list wouldn't keep them from reading > the news. Maybe an alt group in tandem with an active mailing list would > give everyone a better feel for which is more appropriate. Or both could > develop their own charracter and the alt group could become a comp group > with the list still surviving. Let me put this in the best Texan talk I can -- LitProg just ain't gonna die off. If a newsgroup is established, it will be gatewayed whether the news folks like it or not (just as comp.text.tex has to live with INFO-TeX whether they like it or not and mail readers have ctt-Digest as a news alternative -- but a digest there is simply due to traffic; I have five other lists which are true mirrors, interactive in every dimension). This aspect of the discussion is null and void. Don't think of this as a "news will lead to the demise of LitProg" issue -- it just ain't that now and it ain't gonna be that any time soon!! --George ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 16:51:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 21:41:14 GMT Message-ID: <10260@apusapus.demon.co.uk> From: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk (Trevor Jenkins) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tfj@APUSAPUS.DEMON.CO.UK To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Subscription to mailing list LitProg SUBSCRIBE LitProg "Trevor Jenkins" Regards, Trevor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trevor Jenkins Re: "deemed!" 134 Frankland Rd, Croxley Green, RICKMANSWORTH, WD3 3AU, England email: tfj@apusapus.demon.co.uk phone: +44 (0)923 776436 radio: G6AJG "We need bigger and better books", Jimmy Tingle (Damned in the USA) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 05:13:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 12:11:31 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9307171011.AA08808@messua> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM CC: tsl1@cornell.edu.ae.ge.com, LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed by LP Note that the "doc" style option for Literate Programming of TeX macro files does not have order independency or modules. So this is an exception of your list of Literate Programming tools all having sections. However, with TeX macros this problem is alleviated a bit because you usually can define macros in whatever order you like. In addition, TeX scraps in macros are, due to changes of catcodes and other things, much less representable as syntactic units as in other languages with a fixed syntax. I would, however, strongly recommend using the "doc" style option for doing literate TeX programming. It has the additional advantage that you do NOT need tangle or weave programs, since all typesetting (I believe this might be the case in Noweb as well) appears as comments to TeX when using the style, and TeX is pretty fast in skipping them. This is ok for testing, and for production versions you can use docstrip for getting the comments out. Sorry for this disgression, but I think the "doc" style option is mentioned not often enough, and it really makes TeX programming literate. David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 11:23:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307171622.AA16036@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: Starting a newsgroup... To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 18:22:25 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text You wrote: > > Let me put this in the best Texan talk I can -- LitProg just ain't gonna > die off. If a newsgroup is established, it will be gatewayed whether the > news folks like it or not I wanted to keep quite on this subject, but this is too much. You are ridiculous. Who from the `news folks' demanded that the Litprog mailing list is shut down? The question was posed by news proponents more than once: How can (1) a newsgroup be established for those who like the comfort and the effectivity of newsreaders, *and* (2) a gateway established for those who have either USENET connection or who like mail lists more. George raised legitimite concerns about such a gateway, he asked questions who nobody of the mail proponents has answered until now. Since he runs more than one gateway already -- perhaps you might address these points and share your point of view in this regard instead of insulting us? For myself, it's clear. I get about 150 personal mails each day. If I won't get Litprog out of my mailbox soon, I'll unsubscribe. It interfers too much with my real work. Therefore I'm one of the `news folks.' But I see it as a necessity to establish means how those who need or want mail access *and* how those who need or want News access can be `part of the crowd.' -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany When it comes to Literate Programming, I get irrational. --- DEK, 16.07.93 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 11:39:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307171638.AA23505@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: Modula 2 WEB To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, j_mcarthur@BIX.COM Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 18:38:24 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text Just to point out that there is another Modula-2 WEB system. Christine and I once created it as a student project. It is derived from Knuth's WEB, i.e., it is written in WEB. But not through changefiles, by changing the code. User documentation is available. Some problems Jeffrey mentioned concerning Sewell's MWEB are not in this version (in particular, it is case sensitive). It is not supported, though -- like Sewell's MWEB. ;-) And it was never used for production software, so I can't guarantee for anything. Note, that I don't use Modula-2, I don't even have a Modula-2 compiler available on my workstation. Oh yes, the access information. It's available from the Literate Programming Archive (like all the packages which were announced and mentioned here the last few weeks). ftp.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.55.75] directory pub/programming/literate-programming/modula-2 -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany When it comes to Literate Programming, I get irrational. --- DEK, 16 Jul 93 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 12:04:48 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307171703.AA10768@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: Starting a newsgroup... To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1993 19:03:33 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text A PS to my mail: To be honest, I just now detected that I was replying to George. My gripes are still the same. But please exchange the paragraph > George raised legitimite concerns about such a gateway, he asked > questions who nobody of the mail proponents has answered until now. > Since he runs more than one gateway already -- perhaps you might > address these points and share your point of view in this regard > instead of insulting us? to You raised legitimite concerns about such a gateway, you asked questions who nobody of the mail proponents has answered until now. Since you run more than one gateway already -- perhaps you might address these points and share your personal point of view in this regard instead of insulting us? After all, you're not only a potential gateway organizer, you're a mail proponent, too. Are you willing to provide a gateway? Unwilling? Is it much hassle for you? Please get back to such questions instead of throwing accusations around. My apologies for reading the sender not more carefully. (But, you can see that I'm paying more attention to the content than to the addressee... :-) -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany When it comes to Literate Programming, I get irrational. --- DEK, 16 Jul 93 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 03:41:01 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307180837.AA10036@mistral.imag.fr> From: Yves Arrouye Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Yves.Arrouye@IMAG.FR Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 10:37:31 +0200 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: unsuscribe litprog Thanks -- With one processor, we verify that the time spent Yves Arrouye in controlling parallelism is not too long. arrouye@mistral.imag.fr arrouye@imag.imag.fr -- Yannick Tre'molet, LMC (33) 76 57 48 61 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 09:46:53 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 18 Jul 93 16:45:04 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9307181445.AA05550@kaa> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Yves.Arrouye@IMAG.FR CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: unsuscribe litprog I think the number of unsubscribers accidently writing to the list address is alarming. Probably in a newsgroup they would skip articles they don't like, such as it is, they skip Literate Programming. If Literate Programming wishes to address a suitable audience (and a good technique should be shared so that a broad base may benefit in the long run) I think it should not balk at leaving the closet. Count me in for newsgroups. David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 12:51:03 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 18 Jul 93 13:47:49 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, norman@bellcore.com Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed before wide acceptance of LP? Message-ID: Norman Ramsey states (in the middle of a ``polemic,'' most of which I agree with): > Should a literate program resemble a novel, essay, encyclopedia, > textbook, or automobile-repair manual? No one knows. Probably none > of these---after all, it is a new literary form. But do we create and > publish literate programs so that the community can study them, learn > from them, and perhaps build an understanding of what a literate > program is and how to write one? No! No, we write tools, because > that's the only thing we're smart enough to understand. I count > myself doubly guilty, since I have written twice as many tool sets as > most other contenders. I agree with Norman that we need to start publishing our literate programs. One of the problems, however, is that many editors don't know what to do with them. We need to ``educate our editors,'' to paraphrase Grace Hopper. On the plus side (in the ``toot my own horn'' department) the _Paradox Informant_ (Jerry Coffey, Elightened Editor) will be publishing a literate program of mine (written using noweb) in the September issue along with another article on _Literate Programming in PAL & ObjectPAL_ (``God willing and the crick don't rise''). I'm also planning on rewriting my Baby Manchester Mark I simulator in CWEB specifically with the idea of publication. Obviously, I'm not even close to the first to publish a literate program, but it seems that the momentum in the LP community has picked up to the point where we need to stop ``reinventing the wheel,'' and start using the wheels we have. [The phrasing is a bit too strong, but the idea is there.] Remember that the LP column in CACM died because people were just building tools rather than using existing ones, and that was a good 5 years ago. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 13:14:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 18 Jul 93 14:13:08 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, kcousins@echidna.rp.csiro.au Subject: Re: Tools/Techniques needed by LP Message-ID: I'd like to add something to the discussion of LP techniques that is, fortunately, starting to take over from the mail/newsgroup fracas :-). I've noticed that there is a significant difference in _purpose_ between text chunks in webs and ``normal'' program comments. In a non-literate program, the documentation is there to ``comment'' on the program source (hence the name). The code itself is definitive. Weinberg's suggestion (Psych. of Comp. Pgmg) that comments be covered during debugging comes from this. On the other hand, the *text* in a web is what is definitive. I find that most of my debugging consists of making sure that the code chunks agree with their respective text chunks. I would suggest that, when debugging a web, the _code_ sections be covered (at least initially). The names of the code chunks also provide significant information. For example, a recent program of mine included the the following (embarrassingly stupid) bug: @= if (set == NULL) do_something(); Note that the bug is in the code, not the documentation. When the code in a literate program disagrees with its documentation, the fault usually lies in the code, while the opposite is true in traditional programs. This all reflects on what Norman Ramsey said earlier. LP is still in its infancy; we've all got a helluva lot to learn. Actually, that's one of the things I like about it. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 13:37:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 18 Jul 93 14:36:25 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, oak.iapa!ctrbdo@rutgers.edu Subject: Re: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al Message-ID: Bryan D. Oakley writes: > ... text omitted ... > > when it creates the code and inserts the #line declarations, I'm > concerned that they will be pretty much useless. If I run a source > debugger I would prefer to see the ORIGINAL SOURCE (ie: the WYSIWYG > web file), _not_ the tangled code, much like I prefer to see the > source code instead of compiled machine or assembly code in > traditional software development (ie: I view a tangled source module > to be at the same level of abstraction as the ultimate compiled code > -- the language file, .c, .f, whatever, is purely a means to an end. > However, source debuggers make the assumption that the source is in > ASCII, not Word(im)Perfect, Word, Frame, or some other format so it > must show the tangled source code. Well, that has no relationship on > the real 'source' code, which causes me grief. I agree, but _someone_ has to ``bell the cat.'' Would you be willing to write such a source debugger yourself? > I see web systems as truely an improvement when the tangled code is > merely a byproduct, and there are sufficient tools to allow one to > work with the original source in all phases of development. Why > should I code in one language (a web system), then debug in another (a > traditional language)? Again, all it takes is for someone to build the tool. > Admittedly, web systems provide great > documentation, but for the work I do, content (and useability) is much > more important that format. I dare say that I can write equally > readable code with just my normal commenting. I disagree totally with this last statement. The code I produce using CWEB and noweb are significantly more readable than anything I have ever produced before. I have also had occasion to delve into other people's literate code, and can testify from experience that even mediocre literate code is easier to modify than good non-literate code. Honesty, however, forces me to admit that when I first read about LP (in the CACM column), my opinion was ``My code is quite `literate' as it is, thank you. I don't need any fancy typesetting tools.'' I was wrong. I find it more productive to give up my source debuggers in favor of LP tools than vice versa. Adding more fuel to the fire, -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 14:02:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307181901.AA18366@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Newsgroup creation 1 of 3: Overview Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 21:01:02 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH The discussion about newsgroup creation has now lasted two weeks. To summarize what progress has been made: - I tried to count votes, and so far, I counted 25 subscribers in favor of newsgroup creation, 10 against. - I learned from George Greenwade that he will set up a gateway if a newsgroup is created, and that he will keep archiving postings. Thanks, George! - By compiling information from various sources, I was able to draft a Request for Discussion (RFD) to start discussion on the net. As I have the impression that the opinions have been stated and that further discussion will not yield substantial new insights, I would like to go ahead by posting the RFD here. In a separate post, I'm trying to summarize the objections to newsgroup creation that have been made, and try to answer them. Feel free to comment on these posts by (preferably) replying to me or, if you think it is beneficial for the discussion, by replying to the LitProg mailing list. Unless massive objections are made, I will post this RFD to the newsgroups mentioned by the end of this week thereby initiating the Usenet discussion. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "Neeracher can and no doubt will perform the usual cheerleader duties." -- ataylor@nmsu.edu in ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 14:03:29 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307181902.AA18374@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Newsgroup creation 2 of 3: Draft RFD Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 21:02:11 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Remarks: - The RFD will be posted to news.announce.newgroups news.groups comp.programming comp.software-eng comp.text.tex - The information presented here has been compiled from information provided by George D. Greenwade Marcus Speh David B. Thompson any remaining errors are of course mine. Request for Discussion: comp.programming.literate ------------------------------------------------- Proposed name: comp.programming.literate Proposed moderation status: unmoderated Proposed Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related to literate programming. (1) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate programming tools. (2) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. (3) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the reading and writing of literate programs. Background: What is Literate Programming? Literate programming is the combination of documentation and source together in a fashion that is readable to human beings. It was created by D.E. Knuth during the development of his TeX typsetting software. Knuth's original work revolved around a particular literate programming tool called WEB. Knuth says: The philosophy behind WEB is that an experienced system programmer, who wants to provide the best possible documentation of his or her software products, needs two things simultaneously: a language like TeX for formatting, and a language like C for programming. Neither type of language can provide the best documentation by itself; but when both are appropriately combined, we obtain a system that is much more useful than either language separately. The structure of a software program may be thought of as a web that is made up of many interconnected pieces. To document such a program we want to explain each individual part of the web and how it relates to its neighbours. The typographic tools provided by TeX give us an opportunity to explain the local structure of each part by making that structure visible, and the programming tools provided by languages such as C or Fortran make it possible for us to specify the algorithms formally and unambigously. By combining the two, we can develop a style of programming that maximizes our ability to perceive the structure of a complex piece of software, and at the same time the documented programs can be mechanically translated into a working software system that matches the documentation. Existing Resources The mailing list LitProg@SHSU.EDU has existed for about a year. There are currently more than 300 subscribers and an average of about 80 messages (corresponding to about 150K of traffic) per month in the first 6 months of this year. If a newsgroup is created, mechanisms are already in place to support a mirrored gateway between it and the existing mailing list. For reference purposes, the newsgroup will be fully archived by the host sponsoring the mailing list. Discussion Discussion should be confined to news.groups. Please do not post responses to any other groups. Discussions may also be e-mailed to neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch if posting is not possible. Assuming there is a consensus that the group comp.programming.literate should be created, voting will start 21 days from the first posting date of this request. Voting instructions will be published in a Call for Votes to the same newsgroups that see this Request for Discussion. Both this Request for Discussion and the Call for Votes will be crossposted to the "litprog@shsu.edu" mailing list. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 14:05:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307181904.AA18382@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Newsgroup Creation 3 of 3: Addressing the Objections Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 21:04:20 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH In this article, I would like to address the arguments against the creation of a newsgroup that have been mentioned in the discussion of the past two weeks. LitProg in this article refers to the discussion about literate programming, either by mail or by news. Questions/concerns are prefixed by ">". Where I have quoted verbatim, I have attributed the quote, non-attributed quotes are paraphrased by me. It has been my impression that responses fell mostly into two groups: - Users who prefer news, and who will switch to reading LitProg by news if a newsgroup is created. - Users who prefer email, and who will continue to read LitProg by mail, even if a newsgroup is created. I would like to address these two groups separately, and since I think that the News people are easier to convince, I start with them. QUESTIONS OF NEWS USERS: > What do I gain from the creation of comp.programming.literate ? - Newsreaders are more efficient at reading many articles, or at skipping over them. - Newsreaders can thread articles by subject, allowing you to get a better overview of a discussion. - A newsgroup is likely to attract more contributors to LitProg, and to raise awareness of Literate Programming in the net community. Peter Schmitt writes: > mail appears automatically in the mailbox and thus alerts me that some > discussion is going on, while a newsgroup has to be selected actively. And > if - for some period - there is no discussion going on, the newsgroup will > not be checked regularly, thus discussion will slow down, and - maybe - > some thread will even die out prematurely. In my experience, most newsreaders have a set of "active" newsgroups, i.e., even if c.p.l should fall silent for two weeks, most users who are subscribed to the group will automatically notice if messages start to appear again. Chuck D'Antonio writes: >Everyone is most concerned with having both the group and the list >connected, but for those who are interested in a newsgroup to maintain a >subscription to the mail list wouldn't keep them from reading the news. I don't think this is such a good idea. It is true that this solves the problem of mailing list readers getting inappropriate traffic, but this also keeps *appropriate* traffic from them. Even readers of both would probably see interesting threads split across both media. Additionally, this solution does not help with the traffic on the mailing list: it still won't be possible to use a newsreader there. Chuck D'Antonio writes: >Maybe an alt group in tandem with an active mailing list would give >everyone a better feel for which is more appropriate. Or both could >develop their own charracter and the alt group could become a comp group >with the list still surviving. Experience shows that it is virtually impossible to get rid of an alt group once it is created. Also, I don't see the necessity of an alt group as a proof that the LitProg debate is serious and lively enough to deserve a group: The mailing list has shown this clearly enough. QUESTIONS OF MAIL USERS: > What do I gain from the creation of comp.programming.literate ? A newsgroup is likely to attract more contributors to LitProg, and to raise awareness of Literate Programming in the net community. > Won't the Signal-to-Noise ratio of a newsgroup be significantly > worse than for a mailing list? I think this is the crucial concern for mail users, and I wish I could give an autoritative and reliable prediction to this, but I'm afraid I can't. I have some reasons to belive, though, that the noise will not increase significantly. Noisy groups are usually characterized by - High volume - A subject that many people intuitively feel competent in - The dominant contributors have a tendency to turn technical arguments into flame wars. None of this is likely to be true for comp.programming.literate: - The current volume (2.6 messages a day) is comparable to the following comp groups: 2.42 comp.databases.pick 2.42 comp.os.research 2.50 comp.os.mach 2.50 comp.theory.dynamic-sys 2.58 comp.ai.fuzzy 2.58 comp.lang.clos 2.58 comp.protocols.kerberos 2.58 comp.sys.ibm.pc.demos 2.58 comp.windows.suit 2.67 comp.binaries.mac 2.67 comp.os.os9 2.75 comp.sys.amiga.introduction 2.75 comp.sys.ti 2.83 comp.compression.research 2.83 comp.edu 2.83 comp.infosystems.wais 2.83 comp.protocols.snmp 3.00 comp.lang.vhdl 3.00 comp.os.os2.networking 3.00 comp.soft-sys.nextstep 3.17 comp.lang.modula2 In comparison, noisy groups like comp.lang.c have almost 60 posts a day and comp.os.linux has even 160 posts a day. Even comp.text.tex with more than 40 posts a day has a relatively decent S/N ratio. - It is rather unlikely that as many people intuitively feel competent in LitProg as in politics, sex, economics, or C, to name a few noisy topics. - The dominant authorities on LitProg so far all have shown civilized behaviour, and, assuming they will continue to contribute, there is no reason to assume they suddenly will turn nasty :-) On the other hand, while I don't expect from the newsgroup much inappropriate traffic, I expect that the amount of *appropriate* traffic will increase through the creation of a newsgroup, and you might see that as a disadvantage. > Isn't a newsgroup less reliable than a mailing list? I might be at a privileged site, but here, there is no noticeable difference. As an experiment, our news administrator (thanks, Andi Karrer!) compared three days of traffic in comp.lang.c between csd-newshost.stanford.edu and bernina.ethz.ch, which have quite different feeds and a considerable number of hops between them. All 174 articles he saw had arrived at both hosts! > Will we lose full archiving of the mailing list? No. Thanks to the efforts of George Greenwade, we will have a gateway between mailing list and newsgroup, and an archive of all the traffic on both. Norman Ramsey writes: >If I believed we could sell literate programming to a wide audience, >I would be in favor of a newsgroup, but I don't think the tools or techniques >(especially not the techniques) have reached that stage yet, so I prefer >to stay in a ghetto if possible. While I certainly cannot dispute Norman's experience and judgement on this point, I think he is somewhat too pessimistic. In my opinion, the mailing list has already been a considerable success in - Demonstrating that interest in LitProg is alive. - Bringing practicioners and implementers of LitProg together. - Intensifying debate about LitProg techniques. I hope that a newsgroup can in a first stage reach more people to further the above goals, especially as a newsgroup is easier for the casual reader to handle. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 20:48:58 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 21:38:13 -0400 (EDT) From: humberto@annexstein.csm.uc.EDU (Humberto Ortiz Zuazaga) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, humberto@ANNEXSTEIN.CSM.UC.EDU Subject: standard web front end, texinfo web, et. al To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Message-ID: <9307190138.AA05708@annexstein.csm.uc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Listname: Literate Programming Discussion List Date: Sun, 18 Jul 93 14:36:25 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg fancy typesetting tools.'' I was wrong. I find it more productive to give up my source debuggers in favor of LP tools than vice versa. I use gdb on some 45 pages of noweb C source without any problems. One thing that I did need to get used to was jumping around from module to module, as it looks like a function call from the top level but the debugger only sees inline code. This might even be fixed by adding additional #line directives (i.e., bracket module expansions with the #line of the module invocation.) With xemacs and linux this is one very nice debugging setup. (Not that my code _ever_ needs any debugging :-) -- Humberto Ortiz Zuazaga zuazaga@ucunix.san.uc.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 20:49:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 11:48:10 +1000 From: Richard Walker Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Richard.Walker@CS.ANU.EDU.AU Message-ID: <199307190148.AA13968@barnard.anu.edu.au> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Still searching for Modula-2!!! Hi all. I'm still searching for a Modula-2 WEB. It looks like Sewell's version is not going to be up to the task, and Joachim's version doesn't have a change file for Unix. So, does anyone have a Spider description? I thought I heard about one for Modula-3. I'd be delighted to hear from anyone who has a Spider description for either Modula-2 or Modula-3 - but especially the former. Richard. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 01:49:36 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 08:50 +0000 (GMT) From: "Eric W. van Ammers, LUW, tel: (+31)8370-83356" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation 2 of 3: Draft RFD To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <01H0PYJCSXK08ZGNMU@RCL.WAU.NL> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT What does the abbreviation "RDF" mean???? ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 04:41:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307190737.AA21979@mistral.imag.fr> From: Yves Arrouye Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Yves.Arrouye@IMAG.FR Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 09:37:36 +0200 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Subject: Re: unsuscribe litprog >If Literate Programming wishes to address a suitable audience (and a good >technique should be shared so that a broad base may benefit in the long >run) I think it should not balk at leaving the closet. > >Count me in for newsgroups. Count me in too. I like Literate Programming, I used it and will use it again, but I can't stand having my mailbox cluttered everyday. A newsgroup will *really* be better. Yves. P.S.: sorry for the bad address when unsuscribing... -- With one processor, we verify that the time spent Yves Arrouye in controlling parallelism is not too long. arrouye@mistral.imag.fr arrouye@imag.imag.fr -- Yannick Tre'molet, LMC (33) 76 57 48 61 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 05:38:45 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307191037.AA26036@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation 2 of 3: Draft RFD To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 12:37:07 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text [I thought this is of more general interest.] Matthias wrote in the proposed c.p.l charter > > Knuth's original work revolved around a particular literate programming > tool called WEB. Knuth says: > > The philosophy behind WEB is that an experienced system > programmer, who wants to provide the best possible > documentation of his or her software products, needs two > things simultaneously: a language like TeX for formatting, > and a language like C for programming. Neither type of > language can provide the best documentation by itself; but > when both are appropriately combined, we obtain a system > that is much more useful than either language separately. > > The structure of a software program may be thought of as a > web that is made up of many interconnected pieces. To > document such a program we want to explain each individual > part of the web and how it relates to its neighbours. The > typographic tools provided by TeX give us an opportunity to > explain the local structure of each part by making that > structure visible, and the programming tools provided by > languages such as C or Fortran make it possible for us to > specify the algorithms formally and unambigously. By > combining the two, we can develop a style of programming > that maximizes our ability to perceive the structure of a > complex piece of software, and at the same time the > documented programs can be mechanically translated into a > working software system that matches the documentation. I don't like the binding to WEB tools. As it was addressed here more than once, the available tools are not quite state-of-the-art, compared to other programming environments. In addition, IMO TeX is mentioned too often -- and many people already have the opinion that one can't do LitProg without TeX. Let's note promote this erroneous opinion further. I think better quotes may be found in the _Literate Programming_ article of DEK. Something along \begin{quote} \noindent Let us change our traditional attitude to the construction of programs: Instead of imagining that our main task is to instruct a {\it computer\/} what to do, let us concentrate rather on explaining to {\it human beings\/} what we want to do. The practitioner of literate programming can be regarded as an essayist, whose main concern is with exposition and excellence of style. Such an author, with thesaurus in hand, chooses the names of variables carefully and explains what each variable means. [\dots] \end{quote} \rightline{\it D. E. Knuth, 1984} Especially the first paragraph gives IMO a better view on the paradigm, independent from the tools. The quote above is taken from the article's introduction, the very first paragraph of this introduction also might contribute to a charter. If there are many people who don't have this article, and if there is enough interest, I might send the complete introduction to this mailing list. Btw, the full article is available from the Literate Programming Archive: ftp.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.55.75] directory pub/programming/literate-programming/Documentation file knuth.literate-programming.tar.Z -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 11:30:36 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 11:30:20 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, AMMERS@RCL.WAU.NL Message-ID: <0096FBB0.8D462A00.6330@SHSU.edu> Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation 2 of 3: Draft RFD On Mon, 19 Jul 1993 08:50 +0000 (GMT), Eric W. van Ammers posted: > What does the abbreviation "RDF" mean???? The term "RFD" is short for "Request for Discussion" -- a necessary first step in the process of creating a newsgroup on USENET. It gets posted to the lists intended for discussing the topic (as well as news.groups and news.announce, generally). Once the discussion period ends (which, to the best of my knowledge, has no specified time table), a "CFV" -- short for "Call for Votes" is issued. The CFV time period is well-specified as 21 days (unless some rare and justifiable reason can be provided for modification of this). At the end of the CFV period, the person who is responsible for counting and verifying votes (by no means trivial as you can change your vote so long as it is within the specified time period) reports back if the vote has met the guidelines for the creation of a new newsgroup (again, as a very rough rule, at least 100 votes total must be involved with at least 2/3 in favor of creation). --George ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 11:58:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307191703.AA16162@shaddam.usb.ve> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 12:59:18 -500 To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH From: mpalma@usb.ve (Prof. Marcos E. Palma Marin) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mpalma@USB.VE Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation 2 of 3: Draft RFD Please! Send me again "Newsgroup creation 1 of 3: Draf RFD" I only receive 2 of 3 and 3 of 3. Thanks in advance --------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof. Marcos E. Palma M. | Eng. Marcos E. Palma M. Dpto.Procesos y Sistemas | Centro de Informatica y Comunicaciones Universidad Simon Bolivar | Universidad Simon Bolivar Valle de Sartenejas | Valle de Sartenejas CARACAS-VENEZUELA | CARACAS-VENEZUELA Apto. Postal 89000 | Apto. Postal 89000 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone: (58) (2) 963-3022 | e-mail: mpalma@usb.ve Ext 3920, 3922 | FAX: (58) (2) 93-8420 | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 13:21:52 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: mbrown@athos.cs.ua.edu (Marcus Brown) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mbrown@ATHOS.CS.UA.EDU Message-ID: <9307191818.AA21805@athos.cs.ua.edu> Subject: Experience with a WEB source level debugger To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 13:18:37 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text Bryan D. Oakley writes: > ... text omitted ... > Talks about the need for the debugger to work with the > WEB source code, not the tangled, unreadable garbage. > > I see web systems as truely an improvement when the tangled code is > merely a byproduct, and there are sufficient tools to allow one to > work with the original source in all phases of development. Why > should I code in one language (a web system), then debug in another (a > traditional language)? > It was a few years ago now, but I was writing CWEB on a Sun workstation. Sun provided a graphical 'dbxtool', which merely put a graphical front end on the 'dbx.' The good thing about it was that it followed the '#line' declarations in the tangled C code, and showed the actual CWEB source code in the 'source code' window. I would think that any tool which followed the '#line' declarations would be able to do this with a minimum of trouble. One problem I ran into: I had a particular section which (like a good general purpose section should) was plugged into several different sections. That is, I needed to @ in several places, so that section was used several times. Trying to debug that section caused a problems: When I placed a break point in the section, 'dbx' wouldn't stop there! I tried it several times, putting breakpoints before and after the section was 'called' ... It just wouldn't stop inside of that section! Finally I set a breakpoint just before the section, then stepped through one line at a time... This worked fine, and I figured out my bug. The question that remained was: Why wouldn't 'dbx' honor the breakpoint I set in that section? "This exercise is left to the reader..." Just for fun, I'll let you think about it for a while, then give the answer in a few days... Anyway, my experience showed that an 'off-the-shelf' debugger CAN be used to show the WEB source code, with only a few minor problems. -- Marcus Brown mbrown@cs.ua.edu Computer Science Dept, Univ of Alabama ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 13:28:18 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307191826.AA10801@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: proposed charter of newsgroup Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 14:26:13 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Joachim Schrod writes about the proposed charter: > I don't like the binding to WEB tools. As it was addressed here more > than once, the available tools are not quite state-of-the-art, > compared to other programming environments. In addition, IMO TeX is > mentioned too often -- and many people already have the opinion that > one can't do LitProg without TeX. Let's note promote this erroneous > opinion further. > ... > The quote above is taken from > the article's introduction, the very first paragraph of this > introduction also might contribute to a charter. I agree completely. I think also that any charter should take a paragraph or two to summarize Thimbleby's criteria for literate-programming systems (June 1989 CACM, pp 752-755). Norman Ramsey ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 15:30:22 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307192028.AA01099@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Subject: Re: proposed charter of newsgroup Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 22:28:03 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH In message <9307191826.AA10801@mailee.bellcore.com> you write: >Joachim Schrod writes about the proposed charter: >> I don't like the binding to WEB tools. As it was addressed here more >> than once, the available tools are not quite state-of-the-art, >> compared to other programming environments. In addition, IMO TeX is >> mentioned too often -- and many people already have the opinion that >> one can't do LitProg without TeX. Let's note promote this erroneous >> opinion further. >> ... >> The quote above is taken from >> the article's introduction, the very first paragraph of this >> introduction also might contribute to a charter. > >I agree completely. I think also that any charter should take a >paragraph or two to summarize Thimbleby's criteria for >literate-programming systems (June 1989 CACM, pp 752-755). Thanks for the suggestion. I had already decided after seeing Joachims article that the paragraph as present had to be modified. I have snarfed the CACM article you suggested (Which was, thanks to WAIS, rather painless), and I will take a close look at it tomorrow. I assume that by "criteria" you mean passages as the following? Literate programming encourages a programmer to elaborate his program with documentation, and presents the program nicely, in a form conducive to reading. These should be a single source document (or file) containing both documentation and program. Program and documentation can be developed concurrently in the same place, without overhead [...] Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "And that's why I am going to turn this world upside down, and make of it a fire so *bright* that someone real will notice" -- Vernor Vinge, _Tatja Grimm's World_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 18:52:56 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 17:00:47 CDT From: ctrbdo@oak.iapa.uucp (bryan d oakley) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ctrbdo@OAK.IAPA.UUCP Message-ID: <9307192200.AA05010@oak.iapa> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mbrown@ATHOS.CS.UA.EDU CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Experience with a WEB source level debugger >>>>> Marcus Brown writes: => Bryan D. Oakley writes: > ... text omitted ... > Talks about the need for the debugger to work with the > WEB source code, not the tangled, unreadable garbage. > > I see web systems as truely an improvement when the tangled code is > merely a byproduct, and there are sufficient tools to allow one to > work with the original source in all phases of development. Why > should I code in one language (a web system), then debug in another (a > traditional language)? > => It was a few years ago now, but I was writing CWEB on a Sun workstation. => Sun provided a graphical 'dbxtool', which merely put a graphical => front end on the 'dbx.' The good thing about it was that it followed the => '#line' declarations in the tangled C code, and showed the actual CWEB => source code in the 'source code' window. => I would think that any tool which followed the '#line' declarations would => be able to do this with a minimum of trouble. *sigh* Context is being lost here. I am aware of what the #line directives do, and also what dbxtool does. However, I was refering to WYSIWYG webs. For example, if I web'ed using, say, WordPerfect, dbxtool would have a veritable fit if it tried to display a WordPerfect document in it's source window. Non-WYSIWYG webs I presume would pose no challenge to the average (or at least above average) source code debugger. {stuff deleted...} => Anyway, my experience showed that an 'off-the-shelf' debugger CAN => be used to show the WEB source code, with only a few minor problems. Except, as mentioned, with WYSIWYG webs... => -- => Marcus Brown => mbrown@cs.ua.edu => Computer Science Dept, Univ of Alabama --------------------------------------------------------------------- Instrument Approach Procedures Automation DOT/FAA/AMI-230 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Bryan D. Oakley ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu KENROB and Associates, Inc. voice: (405) 954-7176 (work) 5909 NW Expwy Suite 209 (405) 366-6248 (home) Oklahoma City, Ok. 73132 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 04:19:30 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307200918.AA11585@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: proposed charter of newsgroup To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 11:18:09 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text Matthias wrote: > > I assume that by "criteria" you mean passages as the following? > > Literate programming encourages a programmer to elaborate his program with > documentation, and presents the program nicely, in a form conducive to > reading. These should be a single source document (or file) containing both > documentation and program. Program and documentation can be developed > concurrently in the same place, without overhead [...] Another thought: When I asked DEK what the `essence' of Literate Programming is for him, he answered (paraphrased): ``Technical Writing taught us that you have to say everything twice: Once informal, in prose, with graphics, etc., to explain it. And once formal to define it precisely. The intermix between `documentation parts' and `code parts', i.e., between explanation and definition, that is the essence.'' He explicitely recurred to Technical Writing as the discipline which influenced him most concerning this topic. -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany When it comes to Literate Programming, I get irrational. --- DEK, 16 Jul 93 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 04:52:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 11:49:47 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9307200949.AA09609@kaa> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ctrbdo@OAK.IAPA CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mbrown@ATHOS.CS.UA.EDU, LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: Experience with a WEB source level debugger As to source level debugging, and the inability of coping with WYSIWYG LP systems: A REAL LP debugger would show the lines in the prepared document, not in the WEB source. This could be an interesting challenge for interface design: the source lines had to be \special led into the .dvi-file, and the previewer had to react on messages of the source code debugger and show the appropriate lines. But with TeX WEBs we have at least the possibility of debugging based on the WEB code. Remember though, that this is not the final solution! And the problems to do "the real thing" with TeX WEBS are about as complicated as with WYSIWYG, only that with TeX WEBs and, say, xdvi, one COULD design a working solution given time and work because the relevant sources (xdvi, gdb, tangle&weave) are all available to the public, and open to discussion, whereas the WYSIWIG approach of the more common editors would entail persuading the producers of commercial systems to build in appropriate support. And, of course, debbuging in the WEBs is a tolerable intermediate solution. David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 06:16:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: dentato@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@MINERVA.ING.UNIROMA1.IT Message-ID: <9307201115.AA14050@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it> Subject: Off-topic To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 13:15:26 +0100 (DFT) Content-Type: text >> [...] When I asked DEK what the `essence' of Literate Programming [...] Sorry for the off topic but is there anybody out there that knows when (if ever) we will see the other volumes of "Art of Computer Programming"? I liked the first three and I'd like to have the others! ___ __ //_/// \ // \//__/ dentato@cadgroup.ing.uniroma1.it Remo Dentato ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 06:32:07 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9307201130.AA11670@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Re: Off-topic To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 13:30:44 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text You wrote: > > Sorry for the off topic but is there anybody out there that knows when > (if ever) we will see the other volumes of "Art of Computer > Programming"? I liked the first three and I'd like to have the others! About 350 pages of Vol. 4 are written. He plans to prerelease them RSN, in three volumes (A, B, and C). I don't remember the name of the publication where this will happen. He's confident that he'll write Vol. 5 soon. (His wife Jill commented dryly that it will most probably never be written... She also told about the start of the series: He wanted to write them in their honeymoon, as a short-term project. But he denies it, according to him he planned for three months after the honeymoon. :) Doesn't that remind anybody of other projects of him? :) :) -- Joachim =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 06:55:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 07:43:51 -0400 (EDT) From: humberto@annexstein.csm.uc.EDU (Humberto Ortiz Zuazaga) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, humberto@ANNEXSTEIN.CSM.UC.EDU Subject: Experience with a WEB source level debugger To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Message-ID: <9307201143.AA06137@annexstein.csm.uc.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Listname: Literate Programming Discussion List Warnings-To: <> Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 11:49:47 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE As to source level debugging, and the inability of coping with WYSIWYG LP systems: A REAL LP debugger would show the lines in the prepared document, not in the WEB source. This could be an interesting challenge This would be even more difficult than debugging in WYWSIWYG webs, as you can't edit the .dvi (or .ps) file. -- Humberto Ortiz Zuazaga zuazaga@ucunix.san.uc.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 07:32:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307201232.AA27145@gauss.math.uni-frankfurt.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, humberto@ANNEXSTEIN.CSM.UC.EDU Subject: Re: Experience with a WEB source level debugger Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 14:32:50 +0100 From: Anselm Lingnau Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lingnau@MATH.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Humberto Ortiz Zuazaga (humberto@annexstein.csm.uc.EDU) writes in answer to David Kastrup (dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE), who said: > As to source level debugging, and the inability of coping with WYSIWYG > LP systems: A REAL LP debugger would show the lines in the prepared > document, not in the WEB source. This could be an interesting challenge > > This would be even more difficult than debugging in WYWSIWYG webs, as > you can't edit the .dvi (or .ps) file. It shouldn't be too difficult just to *show* the lines in the prepared document, given a previewer that is smart enough. I suppose a DVI previewer with a suitable Tcl/Tk interface would come in very helpful here. Of course, then you'd also like to have a debugger and editor which use Tcl/Tk so that they can interact. For instance, if you single-step through a program, the DVI document and the ASCII source will scroll in sync to always display the line that's being executed. But once we're all programming literately, we'll be able to understand all our programs a lot better, and after a while, the code we write will be working right off the bat, so we won't need debuggers anymore. Or will we? :-) Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .................................. lingnau@math.uni-frankfurt.de [The] Internet is so big, so powerful and pointless that for some people it is a complete substitute for life. --- Andrew Brown ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 09:58:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 09:51:19 CDT From: infmx!quivira!grodecki@uunet.UU.NET (Don Grodecki) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, infmx!quivira!grodecki@UUNET.UU.NET Message-ID: <9307201451.AA20006@quivira.lenexa.pd> To: uunet!SHSU.edu!LitProg@uunet.UU.NET Subject: source level debugger > I would think that any tool which followed the '#line' declarations would > be able to do this with a minimum of trouble. > ....... > Anyway, my experience showed that an 'off-the-shelf' debugger CAN > be used to show the WEB source code, with only a few minor problems. > > > -- > Marcus Brown > mbrown@cs.ua.edu > Computer Science Dept, Univ of Alabama > > In the same fashion those using WYSIWYG Webs should be able to have an untangled ASCII version of their Webs show up in the debugger. This ASCII file dumped from the Web could be used as the input to "tangle". This would be almost as good as seeing the Web itself, as the debugger source view is usually "read-only" anyway. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 03:30:43 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307202351.AA26227@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: source level debugger Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 09:51:27 +1000 From: kcousins@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@ECHIDNA.RP.CSIRO.AU Don Grodecki writes: > In the same fashion those using WYSIWYG Webs should be able to have an > untangled ASCII version of their Webs show up in the debugger. This ASCII > file dumped from the Web could be used as the input to "tangle". This would > be almost as good as seeing the Web itself, as the debugger source view is > usually "read-only" anyway. Here, here! Is there not a utility called 'detex'? I had occasion to use this years ago, so that my thesis could be run through spelling and grammar checkers without the TeX macros appearing. It seems a trivial matter to detex the 'woven' WEB to get a plain ascii version of the final document, which I should expect would be a great way to see the thing in a source level debugger. Any ideas for coordinating '#line's? -- ________________________________________________________________________ Kevin Cousins | kcousins@rp.csiro.au | Ph: +61 2 868 0425 Fax: +61 2 868 0490 _--_|\ _ _ . _ _ CSIRO / Division of Radiophysics / \ / ` ( ` / /_) / ) Cnr Vimiera & Pembroke Rds \_.--\_* (_, ._) / / \ (_/ Marsfield NSW 2121 v Sydney, AUSTRALIA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:49:59 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 15:48:36 +0200 From: vieth@convex.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de (Ulrik Vieth ) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, vieth@CONVEX.RZ.UNI-DUESSELDORF.DE Message-ID: <9307211348.AA25029@convex.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Subject: Re: Newsgroup creation 1 of 3: Overview Matthias Neeracher wrote: > > Feel free to comment on these posts by (preferably) replying to me or, if you > think it is beneficial for the discussion, by replying to the LitProg mailing > list. Unless massive objections are made, I will post this RFD to the > newsgroups mentioned by the end of this week thereby initiating the Usenet > discussion. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hello, it just came to my mind, that the end of this week might not be the ideal date to start the newsgroup creation process, since several of the most prominent LitProgers will probably be away next week for the TUG meeting in Aston. So if any serious questions or objections are raised on Usenet, the absence of the `in-crowd' might give us a bad start. Maybe we should delay the RfD just another week, don't you think? Anyway, I'm in favor of a newsgroup since the mail load on LitProg makes mail handling rather cumbersome when reading it only once a week during the holiday period. So you can expect a yes vote from me. Greetings, Ulrik Vieth -- Ulrik Vieth, HHU Duesseldorf ``Some day we will have personal computers and live more normally.'' -- Donald E. Knuth, `The Errors of TeX', 14 March 1978 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:51:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307211412.AA00503@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@ECHIDNA.RP.CSIRO.AU Subject: Re: source level debugger Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 10:12:11 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > Here, here! Is there not a utility called 'detex'? I had occasion to use this > years ago, so that my thesis could be run through spelling and grammar checke rs > without the TeX macros appearing. > > It seems a trivial matter to detex the 'woven' WEB to get a plain ascii versi on > of the final document, which I should expect would be a great way to see the > thing in a source level debugger. detex is unsuitable for this purpose; look at the output sometime. dvi2tty would be much better. it would be an interesting exercise to build a literate-program viewer along the lines of Marcus Brown's work but showing the *output* of TeX instead of the (unreadable) input---an essential property in my view. Coordinating such a viewer with a debugger would not be difficult. One approach that would be relatively easy to implement in noweb would be to make a special TeX run in which each documentation chunk appears on a single, arbitrarily large page. The viewer could then display these chunks using standard dvi technology, but could display code chunks in simple ASCII, properly associated with source-line numbers for easy debugging. A propos of debugging, planting breakpoints with replicated chunks is isomorphic to function inlining, and it breaks most debuggers---but not ldb! (small ad for my dissertation project :-). Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:42:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 16:40:10 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, Richard.Walker@cs.anu.edu.au Subject: Re: Still searching for Modula-2!!! Message-ID: Richard Walker asks: > Hi all. I'm still searching for a Modula-2 WEB. > It looks like Sewell's version is not going to be > up to the task, and Joachim's version doesn't have > a change file for Unix. > > So, does anyone have a Spider description? I thought > I heard about one for Modula-3. I'd be delighted > to hear from anyone who has a Spider description for > either Modula-2 or Modula-3 - but especially the former. I don't know of a Spider grammar for M-2 or M-3, but they shouldn't be too hard to write if you want to tackle it yourself. The Modulas are ``small'' languages without too many keywords or constructs. I was playing around with a grammar for Oberon (Wirth's latest) for a while. It would have been quite straightforward (if I had ever actually gone to the trouble to get it working!). -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:51:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307212049.AA08620@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: RFD, 2nd iteration, 1 of 2: Overview Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 22:49:34 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH My first draft of the RFD was justly criticized for being much too WEB/TeX-heavy, so I tried to rewrite the background section along the suggestions of Joachim Schrod and Norman Ramsey. I would welcome any suggestions about what programming languages and documentation systems should be added to the list (Am I right about Framemaker being supported, BTW?). Because of the substantial rewrite, I will probably wait a few days longer to post the RFD to the net, and since it has to be approved by a moderator first, it will most likely appear by the end of *next* week. If the proposal should get to vote, I managed to secure the services of an universally respected vote taker, so the actual vote should proceed smoothly. Comments welcome, preferably to me, if necessary to the list. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "And that's why I am going to turn this world upside down, and make of it a fire so *bright* that someone real will notice" -- Vernor Vinge, _Tatja Grimm's World_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:52:07 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307212049.AA08625@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 22:49:37 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Remarks: - The RFD will be posted to news.announce.newgroups news.groups comp.programming comp.software-eng comp.text.tex - The information presented here has been compiled from information provided by George D. Greenwade Marcus Speh David B. Thompson Joachim Schrod Norman Ramsey any remaining errors are of course mine. - Feedback by email is, as always, welcome. Request for Discussion: comp.programming.literate ------------------------------------------------- Proposed name: comp.programming.literate Proposed moderation status: unmoderated Proposed Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related to literate programming. (1) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate programming tools. (2) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. (3) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the reading and writing of literate programs. Background: What is Literate Programming? In an article published in _The Computer Journal_ 27 (1984), 97-111, Donald E. Knuth proposed a "literate" programming style: Let us change our traditional attitude to the construction of programs: Instead of imagining that our main task is to instruct a *computer* what to do, let us concentrate rather on explaining to *human beings* what we want a computer to do. The practitioner of literate programming can be regarded as an essayist, whose main concern is with exposition and excellence of style. Such an author, with thesaurus in hand, chooses the names of variables carefully and explains what each variable means. He or she strives for a program that is comprehensible because its concepts have been introduced in an order that is best for human understanding, using a mixture of formal and informal methods that reinforce each other. A literate programming system can be characterized by the following properties: - The compilable program and the publishable documentation should be generated *automatically* from a *single* document. - The program can be presented in the order that is best for human understanding, regardless of any requirements of the programming language. - The program should be automatically indexed and cross-referenced. Knuth's original system, called WEB, generated Pascal code and a TeX documentation. Most tools relating to the TeX system have been written using WEB, and the TeX and Metafont programs have been published in book form. Today, there are literate programming systems for a wide range of programming languages and documentation systems. Specialized literate programming tools have been written for Ada, Awk, C, C++, Fortran, Modula-2, Pascal and Scheme, and generic tools exist that can generate almost any programming language (including Perl and sh). Documentation systems supported include TeX, Troff, Framemaker, and Word for Windows. Existing Resources The mailing list LitProg@SHSU.EDU has existed for about a year. There are currently more than 300 subscribers and an average of about 80 messages (corresponding to about 150K of traffic) per month in the first 6 months of this year. If a newsgroup is created, mechanisms are already in place to support a mirrored gateway between it and the existing mailing list. For reference purposes, the newsgroup will be fully archived by the host sponsoring the mailing list. Discussion Discussion should be confined to news.groups. Please do not post responses to any other groups. Discussions may also be e-mailed to neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch if posting is not possible. Assuming there is a consensus that the group comp.programming.literate should be created, voting will start 21 days from the first posting date of this request. Voting instructions will be published in a Call for Votes to the same newsgroups that see this Request for Discussion. Both this Request for Discussion and the Call for Votes will be crossposted to the "litprog@shsu.edu" mailing list. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 03:15:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 09:13:59 +0200 From: kahl@informatik.unibw-muenchen.de (Wolfram Kahl) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kahl@INFORMATIK.UNIBW-MUENCHEN.DE Message-ID: <9307220713.AA18921@hermes.Informatik.UniBW-Muenchen.de> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Subject: Re: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Hallo, after the "Background" section in the revised RFD has been liberated from too much TeX/WEB heaviness, the sequencing in the "Charter" irritates me even more than the first time through. Here is the proposal: >Proposed Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related > to literate programming. > >(1) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate > programming tools. > >(2) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. > >(3) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the > reading and writing of literate programs. In light of the recent discussion it is probably not only my opinion that the order should really be reversed, yielding more of a top down approach, like (1) (former 3) To share ideas ... (What is literate programming?) (2) (former 2) To discuss the design... (What should the tools look like?) (3) (former 1) To discuss the merits... (How do the available tools fit?) Wolfram _____________________________________ | Wolfram Kahl | | kahl@informatik.unibw-muenchen.de | ------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 07:24:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 07:24:07 CST From: "George D. Greenwade" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kahl@INFORMATIK.UNIBW-MUENCHEN.DE Message-ID: <0096FDE9.A6DCE4A0.18267@SHSU.edu> Subject: Re: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD On Thu, 22 Jul 93 09:13:59 +0200, kahl@informatik.unibw-muenchen.de (Wolfram Kahl) posted: > after the "Background" section in the revised RFD has been liberated from > too much TeX/WEB heaviness, the sequencing in the "Charter" irritates me > even more than the first time through. Here is the proposal: > > >Proposed Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related > > to literate programming. > > > >(1) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate > > programming tools. > > > >(2) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. > > > >(3) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the > > reading and writing of literate programs. > > In light of the recent discussion it is probably not only my opinion that > the order should really be reversed, yielding more of a top down approach, > like > > (1) (former 3) To share ideas ... (What is literate programming?) > (2) (former 2) To discuss the design... (What should the tools look like?) > (3) (former 1) To discuss the merits... (How do the available tools fit?) I would agree with this sentiment, as well. Going back to July 1992 (when Cameron and I first discussed this list), that was more or less the ordering. While lists do not have "charters", per se, I think that the general public announcement, as well as the welcome message received by new subscribers, could be viewed as something close to a charter (a mission statement definitely). My apologies to Matthias for not catching the ordering sequencing earlier, before posted it publicly. For reference, the general discussion in these documents reads: > LitProg is a network list dealing with topics related to Literate > Programming. This includes general issues of style and philosophy, such as > "what is literate programming?" or "is literate programming compatible with > writing portable programs?", as well as specific issues relating to > particular literate programming systems, such as "is it possible to use > CWEB with ANSI C?" or, (1) philosophy -- need to propagate the concept's worthiness; sell the concept (2) ideas -- exchange in general; what, why, how, etc.; (3) design -- what the tools should look like (4) application -- how the available tools fit Just my \$0.02. --George ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 10:24:22 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307221522.AA11231@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 17:22:42 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH George D. Greenwade writes: >kahl@informatik.unibw-muenchen.de (Wolfram Kahl) posted: >> after the "Background" section in the revised RFD has been liberated from >> too much TeX/WEB heaviness, the sequencing in the "Charter" irritates me >> even more than the first time through. Here is the proposal: >> >> >Proposed Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related >> > to literate programming. >> > >> >(1) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate >> > programming tools. >> > >> >(2) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. >> > >> >(3) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the >> > reading and writing of literate programs. >> >> In light of the recent discussion it is probably not only my opinion that >> the order should really be reversed, yielding more of a top down approach, >> like >> >> (1) (former 3) To share ideas ... (What is literate programming?) >> (2) (former 2) To discuss the design... (What should the tools look like?) >> (3) (former 1) To discuss the merits... (How do the available tools fit?) > >I would agree with this sentiment, as well. Going back to July 1992 (when >Cameron and I first discussed this list), that was more or less the >ordering. >[...] >or, >(1) philosophy -- need to propagate the concept's worthiness; sell the concep t >(2) ideas -- exchange in general; what, why, how, etc.; >(3) design -- what the tools should look like >(4) application -- how the available tools fit I agree that I had my priorities all mixed up, and that ideas (and possibly philosophy, thanks for the suggestion) should come first. I disagree about the order of the last two, however. IMHO, the strengths and weaknesses of existing systems have to be taken into consideration before designing new systems. Therefore, I think that the goals in the charter should be: (0) To propagate the idea of literate programming. (1) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the reading and writing of literate programs. (2) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate programming tools. (3) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. I don't like my formulation for (0), though. Although every newsgroup or mailing list, up to a certain degree, evangelizes for its subject matter, I'm not sure if explicitely stating this in the charter would be a good idea. I would therefore welcome suggestions for a better (0). Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "I didn't get where I am today by being wise!" -- Lawrence D'Oliveiro ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 11:35:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 11:32:22 -0500 From: Cameron Smith Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, cameron@SYMCOM.MATH.UIUC.EDU Message-ID: <199307221632.AA18196@symcom.math.uiuc.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bed_gdg@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Just a quick note to second George's endorsement of Wolfram's objection... (wait, this is getting complicated...) Anyway, what he said. Philosophy first, nitty-gritty details last. And thanks to George for supporting this list! (No special reason to say that now, but I don't say it often enough and now is as good a time as any to be grateful!) --Cameron ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 15:23:49 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:28:44 -0500 From: plyon@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lyon) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, plyon@EMX.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Message-ID: <9307222028.AA26942@emx.cc.utexas.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH CC: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Matthias Neeracher writes: > - The RFD will be posted to > news.announce.newgroups > news.groups > comp.programming > comp.software-eng > comp.text.tex Suggestion: It might be helpful to post the RFD to several other news groups, one candidate being comp.compilers. There was a discussion last year therein about source code comments and such which took a turn in the direction of literate programming; at any rate I did construe it so and posted a message about the existence of this mailing list :-) It might also be worth posting the RFD to language specific news groups for which we currently have language specific Web systems; comp.lang.c or comp.lang.c++. Periodically one gets a lengthy thread in such newsgroups about source code documentation: surely some of the parties to such discussions would be interested in a comp.programming.literate news group? After all, if one is going to try to spread the idea why not start at once with the RFD for the proposed news group :-) Ciao, Paul Lyon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 15:23:57 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:28:44 -0500 From: plyon@emx.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lyon) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, plyon@EMX.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Message-ID: <9307222028.AA26942@emx.cc.utexas.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH CC: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Matthias Neeracher writes: > - The RFD will be posted to > news.announce.newgroups > news.groups > comp.programming > comp.software-eng > comp.text.tex Suggestion: It might be helpful to post the RFD to several other news groups, one candidate being comp.compilers. There was a discussion last year therein about source code comments and such which took a turn in the direction of literate programming; at any rate I did construe it so and posted a message about the existence of this mailing list :-) It might also be worth posting the RFD to language specific news groups for which we currently have language specific Web systems; comp.lang.c or comp.lang.c++. Periodically one gets a lengthy thread in such newsgroups about source code documentation: surely some of the parties to such discussions would be interested in a comp.programming.literate news group? After all, if one is going to try to spread the idea why not start at once with the RFD for the proposed news group :-) Ciao, Paul Lyon ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 16:21:22 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307222119.AA27129@err.ethz.ch> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 23:19:47 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Paul Lyon writes: >Matthias Neeracher writes: >> - The RFD will be posted to >> news.announce.newgroups >> news.groups >> comp.programming >> comp.software-eng >> comp.text.tex > >It might be helpful to post the RFD to several other news groups, one >candidate being comp.compilers. I'll ask the moderator of comp.compilers about it. It might be a good idea. >It might also be worth posting the RFD to language specific news >groups for which we currently have language specific Web systems; >comp.lang.c or comp.lang.c++. Periodically one gets a lengthy thread >in such newsgroups about source code documentation: surely some of the >parties to such discussions would be interested in a >comp.programming.literate news group? Why not. At least comp.lang.ada comp.lang.c comp.lang.c++ comp.lang.pascal comp.lang.misc might be candidates. Ada because of the software methodology aspect (though I don't know if LitProg is DoD approved :-), C, C++, and Pascal since I'm sure that LitProg is being done in these languages. c.l.misc since they are interested both in the target languages and *WEB as a language itself. I'm not sure about: comp.lang.scheme comp.lang.perl comp.lang.fortran comp.lang.apl comp.lang.modula-2 although I'm fairly sure that *some* LitProg has been done. As far as I know, it isn't considered good taste to crosspost an RFD to too many groups, so it might be best to limit ourselves to 10 groups. On the other hand, there is nothing sacrosanct about my 5 candidates; especially software-eng might be dropped. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "We realize that this means the destruction of solar systems, but consider the alternative." -- Vernor Vinge _A Fire Upon the Deep_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 21:59:32 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307250257.AA05048@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Subject: Re: RFD, 2nd iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Date: Sat, 24 Jul 93 22:57:17 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM consider comp.lang.modula3. i have written a lot of m3 code using literate-programming tools, although i do not call the results a literate program. and the modula-3 people have cooked up for themselves a `literate' style best described as the analog of cnoweb (which i would argue is not literate at all since it does not permit the code to be reorderd). in any case, there's definite interest in literate techniques among the m3 commmunity. Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 11:21:45 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307261619.AA06267@petrus.grenoble.hp.com> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: bug on noweb on hpux Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 18:19:36 +0200 From: Dominique Dumont / GND Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, domi@PETRUS.GRENOBLE.HP.COM Hi all I've found a bug in the noweave.hpux script. Somehow the awk code has a slight bug: I had to replace the line 44 which was gsub("{", "\\{", line) ; gsub("}", "\\}", line) with gsub("\{", "\{", line) ; gsub("}", "\\}", line) Don't ask me why, I'm no awk guru (I just began to learn it this afternoon :-( ) I wish it was written in perl, I'd have found the bug in a jiffy ...(hint hint) Cheers ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Dominique Dumont ^^^^^^ Email: Dominique_Dumont@grenoble.hp.com / O O \ HP Desk: Dominique DUMONT / HP6300/UM ( \____/ ) Address : HEWLETT PACKARD, 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 FRANCE \______/ Tel,Telnet: (33) 76 62 57 24 - 7 779 5724 Telex,Fax: 980 124 - (33) 76 62 53 20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS : by hint hint I mean all of you who currently use shell, sed or awk to write your scripts you should really consider to switch to perl. It's faster, more powerfull in terms of possibilities, and it's free. I'll send a perl faq to anyone who asks it. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:18:57 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ravn@IMADA.OU.DK Message-ID: <199307261916.AA22040@imada.ou.dk> Subject: Nuweb 0.8 and AUC-TeX 7 -- a solution To: litprog@shsu.edu Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 21:17:01 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have now found an unofficial solution to the problem for people using AUC-TeX (*) with Nuweb. You need AUC-TeX 7 for these undocumented facilities to work, but it should work with both TeX 2 and TeX 3. [I am working on getting official (that is, documented) hooks for Webs in AUC-TeX] Due to the numerous little changes the patch file grew to ~32K, so you'll have to get it with ftp from /anonymous@ftp.imada.ou.dk:/pub/misc/nuweb -rw-rw-r-- 372 Jul 23 21:45 README -rw-rw-r-- 31346 Jul 26 20:03 nuweb.auctex.patch <= Just the patch -rw-rw-r-- 155775 Jul 26 20:10 nuweb.auctex.shar <= AUC 0.8 dist -rw-r--r-- 169067 Jul 2 18:05 nuweb.shar <= Original 0.8 dist Unless you have the nuweb-0.8 source handy, grab "nuweb.auctex.shar". (*) Preston reminded me that a few lines of description would be appropriate; so here goes...[snip snip from the README] *** AUC-TeX for GNU Emacs AUC-TeX is a comprehensive customizable integrated environment for writing input files for LaTeX using GNU Emacs. AUC-TeX lets you run TeX/LaTeX and other LaTeX-related tools, such as a output filters or post processor from inside Emacs. Especially `running LaTeX' is interesting, as AUC-TeX let's you browse through the errors TeX reported, while it moves the cursor directly to the reported error, and displays some documentation for that particular error. This will even work when the document is spread over several files. AUC-TeX automatically indents your `LaTeX-source', not only as you write it---you can also let it indent and format an entire document. It has a special outline feature, which can greatly help you `getting the overview' of a document. Apart from these special features, AUC-TeX provides an large range of handy Emacs macros, which in several different ways can help you write your LaTeX documents fast and painless. The latest version is available from /anonymous@iesd.auc.dk:/pub/emacs-lisp as auctex.tar.gz Comments and criticism are very welcome. Regards, -- Thorbj{\o}rn Andersen ravn@imada.ou.dk [I speak of AUC-TeX as a happy user only; we have nothing to do with iesd] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:44:47 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307262039.AA21848@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: RFD, 3rd Iteration, 1 of 2: Overview Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 22:39:56 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH I think the second draft was already somewhat closer to acceptable, but as the comments demonstrated, there still was ample room for improvement. Major changes were: The list of target newsgroups has been extended. There is now a two-level hierarchy of interested newsgroups. The "inner" level gets to see all RFDs and all CFVs (6 postings in all). The "outer" level just gets a single reminder at the beginning of the discussion period. The reasons for the outer level are on one hand that comp.compilers is moderated and the moderator doesn't want more than one announcement on the topic and on the other hand that crossposting an RFD to too many groups is not recommended by the USENET guidelines. None of the RFDs I have seen were posted to more than 6 groups, so 8 is already rather high. The goals in the charter have been reordered. The old order was clearly wrong. Several posters suggested a different order of (2) and (3) than I have now, but I need more convincing to change that. The Knuth quote has been extended by one paragraph. Comments to me welcome. This *might* be the last iteration before the RFD is posted. Note, however, that there is no problem in amending the charter during the RFD period. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ethz.ch "Rock and Roll adolescent hoodlums storm the streets of all nations." -- William Burroughs, _The Naked Lunch_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:44:57 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307262040.AA21854@yggdrasil> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: RFD, 3rd Iteration, 2 of 2: Draft RFD Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 22:40:00 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Remarks: - The RFD will be posted to news.announce.newgroups news.groups comp.programming comp.text.tex comp.lang.misc comp.lang.c comp.lang.c++ comp.lang.fortran Additionally, the following groups will get a post at the beginning informing them that a group creation process has started: comp.software-eng comp.compilers comp.lang.ada comp.lang.modula3 - The information presented here has been compiled from information provided by George D. Greenwade Marcus Speh David B. Thompson Joachim Schrod Norman Ramsey and several other contributors. Any remaining errors are of course mine. - Feedback by email is, as always, welcome. Request for Discussion: comp.programming.literate ------------------------------------------------- Proposed name: comp.programming.literate Proposed moderation status: unmoderated Proposed Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related to literate programming. (1) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the reading and writing of literate programs. (2) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate programming tools. (3) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. Background: What is Literate Programming? In an article published in _The Computer Journal_ 27 (1984), 97-111, Donald E. Knuth proposed a "literate" programming style: I believe that the time is ripe for significantly better documentation of programs, and that we can best achieve this by considering programs to be works of literature. Hence, my title: "Literate Programming." Let us change our traditional attitude to the construction of programs: Instead of imagining that our main task is to instruct a *computer* what to do, let us concentrate rather on explaining to *human beings* what we want a computer to do. The practitioner of literate programming can be regarded as an essayist, whose main concern is with exposition and excellence of style. Such an author, with thesaurus in hand, chooses the names of variables carefully and explains what each variable means. He or she strives for a program that is comprehensible because its concepts have been introduced in an order that is best for human understanding, using a mixture of formal and informal methods that reinforce each other. A literate programming system can be characterized by the following properties: - The compilable program and the publishable documentation should be generated *automatically* from a *single* document. - The program can be presented in the order that is best for human understanding, regardless of any requirements of the programming language. - The program should be automatically indexed and cross-referenced. Knuth's original system, called WEB, generated Pascal code and a TeX documentation. Most tools relating to the TeX system have been written using WEB, and the TeX and Metafont programs have been published in book form. Today, there are Literate Programming systems for a wide range of programming languages and documentation systems. Specialized Literate Programming tools have been written for Ada, Awk, C, C++, Fortran, Modula-2, Modula-3, Pascal and Scheme, and generic tools exist that can generate almost any programming language (including Perl and sh). Documentation systems supported include TeX, Troff, and Word for Windows. Existing Resources The mailing list LitProg@SHSU.EDU has existed for about a year. There are currently more than 300 subscribers and an average of about 80 messages (corresponding to about 150K of traffic) per month in the first 6 months of this year. If a newsgroup is created, mechanisms are already in place to support a mirrored gateway between it and the existing mailing list. For reference purposes, the newsgroup will be fully archived by the host sponsoring the mailing list. Discussion Discussion should be confined to news.groups. Please do not post responses to any other groups. Discussions may also be e-mailed to neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch if posting is not possible. Assuming there is a consensus that the group comp.programming.literate should be created, voting will start 21 days from the first posting date of this request. Voting instructions will be published in a Call for Votes to the same newsgroups that see this Request for Discussion. Both this Request for Discussion and the Call for Votes will be crossposted to the "litprog@shsu.edu" mailing list. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:23:28 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 11:21:18 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, domi@petrus.grenoble.hp.com Subject: Re: bug on noweb on hpux Message-ID: Dominique Dumont points out a bug in a noweave awk script. I, too, have had problems with that particular line. However, it seems to be more of an Awk bug than a noweave one. gsub is a rather complex function, and it seems, is rather bug-prone (MKS Awk, which I use, has a different gsub bug that screws up the line in question). The problems seem to come in 2 areas: 1) dealing with backslashes (and other special characters) in pattern strings can get quite hairy (and counterintuitive) 2) UNIX and POSIX do not agree about (1). Not really wanting to get into the Perl/Awk debate, I was still wondering if the same kind of problems crop up in the various perl implementations. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 12:04:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199307271701.AA11529@err.ethz.ch> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: bug on noweb on hpux Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 19:01:37 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH In message you write: >Dominique Dumont points out a bug in a noweave awk script. > >I, too, have had problems with that particular line. However, it seems to be >more of an Awk bug than a noweave one. gsub is a rather complex function, >and it seems, is rather bug-prone >[...] > 1) dealing with backslashes (and other special characters) in pattern > strings can get quite hairy (and counterintuitive) > > 2) UNIX and POSIX do not agree about (1). > >Not really wanting to get into the Perl/Awk debate, I was still wondering if >the same kind of problems crop up in the various perl implementations. No. There is but one Perl and Larry Wall is its prophet :-) As opposed to Awk, whose original source was proprietary and which was relatively easy to imitate, the source of Perl is copylefted and it's almost impossible to write a Perl clone without borrowing the original parser (Perl has a syntax which is from a computer's point of view quite nasty). As to the suggestion to use Perl instead of Awk for WEB work, I'm not sure. On one hand, Perl code can be very portable across platforms and Perl is IMHO much more powerful than Awk. On the other hand, Perl itself is almost unparseable for a literate programming tool and therefore at least not suited to literate programming with any tools that try to format source code. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ethz.ch "A system without PERL is like a hockey game without a fight." -- Mitch Wright ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:01:50 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9307280822.AA23580@petrus.grenoble.hp.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: bug on noweb on hpux Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:22:06 +0200 From: Dominique Dumont / GND Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, domi@PETRUS.GRENOBLE.HP.COM In message <199307271701.AA11529@err.ethz.ch> you write: > As to the suggestion to use Perl instead of Awk for WEB work, I'm not sure. > On one hand, Perl code can be very portable across platforms and Perl is > IMHO much more powerful than Awk. On the other hand, Perl itself is almost > unparseable for a literate programming tool and therefore at least not suited > to literate programming with any tools that try to format source code. > This may be a problem if you want to do literate programming with pretty printed perl (Do you ?). On the other hand tgrind works quite well with perl so the problem of parsing perl may not be that difficult. This was just a 0.02 $ contribution :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Dominique Dumont ^^^^^^ Email: Dominique_Dumont@grenoble.hp.com / O O \ HP Desk: Dominique DUMONT / HP6300/UM ( \____/ ) Address : HEWLETT PACKARD, 38053 Grenoble Cedex 09 FRANCE \______/ Tel,Telnet: (33) 76 62 57 24 - 7 779 5724 Telex,Fax: 980 124 - (33) 76 62 53 20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 22:59:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 20:56:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Bass Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, chuckb@U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Add me to the mailing list please. To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii I would like to become a member of this list please. chuckb ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 19:00:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Aaron) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@BCSTEC.CA.BOEING.COM Message-ID: <9307292355.AA15554@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: subscribe To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:55:34 PDT Subscribe me please. -- |Aaron |Boeing Commercial Airplanes >>> aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com <<< |PO BOX 3707 M/S 11-PT |Seattle WA 98124 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1993 10:58:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 11:57:18 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Thoughts on symbolic debugging in CWEB Message-ID: It has occurred to me that it should be rather simple (although not trivial) to create a WYSIWYGish symbolic CWEB debugger by wedding a standard debugger to a dvi driver. Some fairly simple changes can be made to the macros in cwebmac.tex -- only \N, \A, and \U need be changed, as best I can figure -- to have these macros insert \specials into the dvi file with section cross-references to be used by the debugger. CWEAVE could also be modified (again, simply but not trivially) to put #line information into \specials, as well. The debugger could use this to establish a correspondence between the .dvi file and whatever debugging info is stored in the object code. It could then generate error message, trace info, etc. geared to the dvi file, allowing debugging to take place completely (or so) with regard to the woven web. It would still be necessary to make fixes to the .w file, but you can't have everything. A more ambitious debugger might also be able to use the info in the generated index. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the expertise to follow up this project myself, although I would be willing to help in any way I can, if anyone cares to adopt it as their own. -- Lee ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Never again will I climb on a lava cliff in my underwear." -- Thor Heyerdahl ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1993 11:04:24 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 12:03:06 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: CWEB output as in Knuth LP book Message-ID: I'm trying to play with the CWEB macros to get output like Knuth's in _Literate Programmming_: \hrules instead of page breaks, etc. I'm having a bit (ha! I'm having a _lot_) of trouble getting \inx and \fin to cooperate in allowing the section names to follow on the same page as the index, after an \hrule. I would be grateful for any help anyone can give me with this. Thanks in advance. -- Lee